Why do they hate us?
When I travelled to China in the 1990s, America was highly respected. In a sense, they looked up to the US as a sort of model. Now many Chinese detest America.
Many people are surprised when I tell them about this dramatic change. “What have we done to make them hate us?” I get very discouraged when I hear that response. How can well-educated people not know about all the things the US government has done to anger the Chinese people? Consider:
1. A former (and possibly future) secretary of state recently declared that Taiwan should declare independence from China, even though the US policy for decades has been that China and Taiwan are part of a single country. How would you expect the Chinese people to react to our trying to break up their country?
2. President Trump imposed blatantly illegal tariffs on China, completely disregarding international trade rules when doing so. We demand the Chinese follow international rules, but we treat those rules with complete contempt when they inconvenience us. Biden has continued these idiotic trade policies. How would you expect the Chinese people to react to our hypocrisy?
3. In the 1990s, the US encouraged China to welcome more foreign investment. Now we not only restrict that investment, we bully all other nations to stop investing in China’s high text sector. We have government officials stating publicly that our goal should be to prevent China from developing an advanced tech sector. We are trying to destroy one of China’s leading tech companies. How would you expect the Chinese people to react to our bullying?
4. You have the US government complaining about genocide in Ukraine, and then former National Security advisor John Bolton tells the media that Trump privately told Xi Jinping that he supports the Xinjiang concentration camps. And you wonder why the Chinese people think we are hypocrites?
5. In February 2020, Trump issues no fewer than 14 statements praising China for the way it handled Covid. Then when Covid hits the US and it becomes apparent that Trump did absolutely nothing to prepare us for the epidemic, US officials start blaming China for the pandemic. At one point they even claimed to have evidence that the virus escaped from a Chinese lab. The evidence did not exist; it was all a lie. How would you expect the Chinese people to react to our lies?
6. Until recently, the death toll in China has been extremely low (although that might change soon). In contrast, the US handled the virus with extreme incompetence, leading to more than a million deaths. That’s not just far worse than China, it’s three times worse (per capita) than even a democratic nation like Canada. How would you expect the Chinese people to react when they hear about our cavalier disregard for human life?
7. A US president claims that almost every Chinese student studying in America is a spy. (Does this include my wife?) How would you expect the Chinese people to react to our bigotry?
8. The US has a close relationship with Saudi Arabia, despite a horrific human rights record in that country, not to mention Saudi war crimes in Yemen. China also has a horrific human rights record, but we don’t need their oil and they aren’t funneling billions into Jared Kushner’s pockets. How would you expect the Chinese people to react to our hypocrisy?
9. In WWII, we put Japanese Americans into concentration camps but German Americans remained free. Gee, I wonder why? In the 1980s, we had trade barriers on Japanese cars but not German cars. Gee, I wonder why? Today our foreign policy experts suggest we should not use our military to protect Ukraine from Russia, but should use our military to protect Taiwan from China. Gee, I wonder why? The Chinese people aren’t stupid, they see what’s going on.
People will respond by telling me all sorts of awful things about the Chinese government. And guess what, all of that is true. But that hasn’t changed since the 1990s. But that’s not why the Chinese people hate us. Yes, you can cite examples in the Chinese media of lies about the US, as when they suggested that Covid escaped from a US lab. But even those cases are generally retaliation against previous US government lies.
In the late 1940s, both of these claims were true:
1. The Soviets started the Cold War.
2. The Soviet government was far worse than the US government.
Lots of people believe these two statement are true:
3. The Chinese started the new Cold War.
4. The Chinese government is far worse than the US government.
Point #4 is true. But point #3 is not.
PS. Yes, a portion of anti-American sentiment in China might come from Chinese government lies, such as claims that our policies led to the Ukraine War or that Covid escaped from a US lab. But my sense is that the Chinese people heavily discount CCP propaganda. The Economist recently pointed out that the Chinese public reads Chinese propaganda “backwards”. Thus if their government says there’s no need to hoard food, everyone understands that to mean that there’s a need to hoard food. I suspect the Chinese public understands why some of their government officials respond to accusations that Covid escaped from a Chinese lab with accusations that it escaped from a US lab.
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26. April 2022 at 15:11
1. Taiwan has been independent and self-governing for 80 years. At some point they get to declare that. To me that’s basic human rights.
2/3. Both mostly true. But do remember 2005-2010 time frame China had something similar to tariffs against the US – a highly manipulated and devalued currency. Trump acted way too late. And his tariffs were bad. But both have played these games.
5/6. All the COVID stuff is different value systems, from my utilitarian QALY point of view during COVID 0 hard lockdowns loses more QALY than American policies. I’m not sure if it’s everywhere in China right now but Shanghai has been in lockdowns where you can’t leave your house. That’s losing 2 months of your life. Losing 1/6 of a year is basically suiciding .2% of your life which isn’t far from COVID’s TFR.
Too far on lab leak evidence, I believe it was Anderson who initially said it looked lab created but later changed his tune. Who knows on this.
8. Just real geopolitics. We need their oil.
But I would agree Trumps mean tweets to China hurt the relationship.
I still don’t understand Xi or know his motives on how expansionist he wants China to be which is concerning.
26. April 2022 at 17:33
Many years ago while studying IR at the University of Texas, a few US Navy Admirals were invited to speak on some topics concerning national security. My professor recommended that we attend and I went. The talks were the usual stuff about US role (specifically the Navy) in promoting and protecting trade and commerce and freedom.
Later, I was talking with my professor and at one point he mentioned something one of the admirals had told him in private.
The admiral started off by pointing out that The national security establishment in this country had long been disciples of Mahan and believed that it was critical that America rule the waves and specifically the Pacific Ocean.
At great cost, the Pacific Ocean became an “American lake” after World War II. Virtually all major islands with any harbor/base potential were seized and kept by the US after the war. Moreover, by the 50’s there was a chain of US bases stretching from Japan Mainland, South Korea, Okinawa, Guam, and the Philippines. Taiwan, Singapore, and Australia being allies and part of the chain.
The admiral continued and said that this “chain” prevented any major Asiatic power from projecting naval force into the Pacific by bottling up their fleets (especially submarines) into confined, shallow waters, where they are easier to destroy.
If any one link in the chain were to fall, the chain would be useless as the opposing power could now project their naval power into the Pacific and all that was gained in WWII would be lost.
Finally, my professor mentioned the thing that has stuck with me all these year. The admiral said that Taiwan was part of the chain and could never go back to China. Even if 100% of Taiwanese voted tomorrow to rejoin their countrymen, The US must do everything in its power to stop it. Even occupying the island if need be.
The US government behaves badly. Just like the governments of great powers that came before it and likely those that will replace it Sadly, I do not see this dynamic ever changing.
26. April 2022 at 17:38
Lots of true statements, but these U.S. actions themselves aren’t happening in a vacuum.
1. Pompeo isn’t the U.S. government. Trump said some stuff early in his presidency and then walked it back. If anything has driven Taiwan away from China, it is CCP rule of China (otherwise they would almost certainly be reunited by now).
2. Sure, but China’s behavior prior was hardly spotless.
3. Well, China explicitly said (in 2015) that it wants to have indigenized production in key-high tech industries and also that it wants to be a world leader in those industries. While the extent of IP theft may have been exaggerated, it also isn’t close to a fictitious phenomenon by any means.
4. Trump is an idiot, no argument there. That I said I think it’s evident to many people that he does not reflect the views of all Americans.
5/6. The U.S. covid response was terrible. YMMV on the Chinese approach.
7. See 4.
8. You can use the relationship with Saudi Arabia to criticize America’s relationship with pretty much any country. Certainly a fair illustration that realism can trump idealism.
9. I always find the use of retrospective Germany/Japan comparisons (based on knowing in 2022 about the full extent of the Holocaust) to be kind of silly. Japan attacked America and killed 2,400 American before they had even officially delivered the declaration of war. Hardly a surprise that the American public at the time might see Japan as a villain compared to Germany. Americans were also aware of the hideous atrocities Japan had been committing in China for a number of years (the anti-semitism of Hitler’s regime was well-known, but the gargantuan scale of the war crimes was not as well-known). In terms of the actual battle, Roosevelt was very committed to putting as many resources as possible into the fight against Germany. And for internment, well, the sheer number of German-Americans made that simply impossible.
27. April 2022 at 08:13
Good post- I’d also argue the rise in nationalism in China also plays a pretty large part. Especially when they consider themselves a rising power pitted against the US as the hegemonic power.
I’d guess better access to information has also had a large impact – it is a lot easier for the general population today to be concerned with international “events” or drama than it was 30 years ago.
Hopefully there will be a rise in free speech advocacy in both the US and China, then we can all agree the powers that be for both governments deserve no praise 😀
Have you considered running for office? Run as a Libertarian. I’d love to see a Sumner v. Trump v. Whoever the democrats can drag out debate
27. April 2022 at 08:59
Sean, No, a depreciated currency is nothing like tariffs, and China’s currency was not significantly depreciated.
Most of your comments have no bearing on my post. You seem to think I’m saying things that I did not say.
JHE, Yes, there are flaws in China’s behavior, but that has no bearing on my post. It’s about why the Chinese hate us.
“Pompeo isn’t the U.S. government.”
Don’t the polls show Trump likely to win in 2024? I can hardly blame the Chinese for being concerned about statements made by a former (and possibly future) secretary of state.
9. I repeatedly see the US being more suspicious of Asian countries than European countries. Look at all the people who suggested China was a bigger threat than Russia, despite Russia obviously being far more aggressive. Look how we obsessed over big Japanese trade surpluses and ignored big German trade surpluses.
Yes, there were many more German-Americans than Japanese Americans, but the key differences is that in 1941 Germans Americans were viewed as American while Japanese Americans were viewed as foreigners. When I was young, people still spoke of “inscrutable orientals”.
Tom, Yes, rising nationalism is a huge problem in China, and indeed almost everywhere these days.
Run for office? Is that a joke?
27. April 2022 at 09:27
What is wrong with you?—–this is ridiculous. I was not aware that “the Chinese people hate us.” Because of Taiwan? We have always played this dopey pretend game on Taiwan—–until and unless Taiwan wants to be absorbed by the CCP we have always supported Taiwan’s independence.
They hate us because we ripped them off on trade? Which peaked at 420 billion in 2018. They hate US because of Covid? You think its fine their food market caused it not the labs? You now believe their Covid numbers?
They hate US because of Robot dogs and drones and fencing in Shanghai citizens because a couple of people died? I had a meeting with a home born current Shanghai citizen—yesterday. She might have hated me, didn’t notice, —but I did not hate her—-she did think it was “odd” That Shanghai was locked down—she might have thought I was CIA–who knows?
They hate us because we had Trump—but it is ok they have XI?
They hate us because of Saudi Arabia but its ok they support North Korea?
Bla Bla———what are you doing?
27. April 2022 at 10:30
I don’t think it is correct to attribute population-level sentiment to a rational bullet points of political decisions. You are far too hard on Trump as well, his personality was popular in China, how many people care about the minueta?
The honest truth is that the most visible parts of current American culture are not attractive. People want to associate with confidence. Insecure self-hatred is repulsive. This is hard wired at the evolutionary level.
Just look at China. It has confidence in spades, which is why it is so alluring to portions of the right. Nothing else matters.
America can have that too, but it will never happen with Biden around (hopefully that is obvious enough that I don’t need to explain why).
27. April 2022 at 12:25
Sorry not run for office. Maybe walk? 😀
27. April 2022 at 15:24
[…] of goodwill between the United States and China since 2016 has been a catastrophe. As Scott Sumner very effectively points out, while there’s lots to dislike about China’s government, it is the United States that […]
27. April 2022 at 15:49
Chinese nationalism began to appear in the 1990’s, before most of these acts of US hypocrisy and perfidy that you cite. Not that that excuses any of these acts, but it does bring into question how much of the hatred is just the result of the tension between a country that sees itself as the rightful world superpower and the current world superpower that it believes is in steep decline.
27. April 2022 at 16:09
Yes, that could be a small portion. China is the most censored and surveilled industrial power on earth. No free press at all. Propaganda and government lies 24/7. Children are indoctrinated and drilled towards nationalism from an early age. That might have *something* to do with it. How much do we give this portion? How about 5%? I say 5% at most. It couldn’t be more than 5%. Okay maybe 10%. But that’s about it. The Little Pinks are basically a myth.
Scott,
this is my sense too. We are not dealing with an extreme nationalist-fascist nation that is being pushed more and more in that direction by the CCP. No, in fact, I think the Chinese are secretly working to democratize their country. Soon the concentration camps will be closed. Basically, they are all open-minded democrats who have nothing to do with nationalism and are secretly working to replace the CCP with a multipolar, democratic system. They just don’t show it that much. But we are this close, Scott, THIS CLOSE. It’s coming any day now. — And if not, I’m sure we can *somehow* blame the US for it. You’ll find a way, I’m certain. Maybe it has something to do with Saudi Arabia. Or the Pope. Or the Jews. Or with an oyster cracker on a stew. I think you’re onto something really big here.
27. April 2022 at 16:23
I see the loonies are out today.
Ryan, You said:
“Just look at China. It has confidence in spades, which is why it is so alluring to portions of the right. Nothing else matters. America can have that too, but it will never happen with Biden around”
Yeah, nothing more alluring to the “right” than a fascist regime with confidence.
Michael and Christian, When you write hysterical comments, don’t expect to be taken seriously. And if you don’t know anything about China, consider not commenting on the topic.
27. April 2022 at 16:52
In the 90s the US was the goal. Now we are competitors. Kind of like hating the Pacers or Pistons. Why bother?
Steve
27. April 2022 at 19:14
I think what you are explaining, which is less than you claim, is how the US needlessly ceded ground to the CCP propaganda machine. Fair enough, and yeah Trump was the top offender of the last 3 admins. But I’d suggest the CCP propaganda machine would have done the same general thing and generally succeeded in any case. The US administrations shouldn’t have made their life so easy, but “the Chinese hate us” would still be a thing. It suits the Chinese domestic political situation.
The Chinese leadership does not reason from the facts and justice, it looks at the game and complains stategically. China would push the US as far as necessary to get a trade conflict, because a conflict is what they want. Of course, they are happy to make hay from stupid pronouncements about COVID, too.
You could ask the question “Why do Americans hate China so much?” The underlying problem is a detachment of the USA ruling class from the median voters’ concerns, which led to Trump among other things. There is not much China could really do to change this. Although supporting theft of IP, neglect of trade agreements, belligerance toward neighbors, oppression of minorities, conspiring to abuse candidates for office, support (even if tepid) of Russia’s invasion, didn’t help.
27. April 2022 at 22:00
I’ll have to think some more about your list but I’ve tended to think about the situation from the perspective that the tension is created by Xi and Trump, each for their own ends.
I don’t agree with the direction Xi has taken China and one element of that is nationalistic saber rattling. He created a narrative of antagonism. Concede that sny good narrative reed comes from a germ of truth.
Trump captures the gestalt even as he flubs the details of why and the response. Our government hasn’t caught up to the reality that the 300M highest income Chinese are better off than the 300M Americans. We drown in policies that haven’t kept up with the times: our postal service subsidies shipping from China. DIrect to consumer sales (via the internet) allow Chinese firms to bypass tariffs. This is expanding and corporatizing in conjunction with the prior point that if you parcel post an item from a Chinese factory, it’s immediately tariff free.
We are starting to see the snowball effective of collocating the factory and the engineers. Prowess in electronic assembly is rapidly developing into ownership of the product development itself. A lot of it is good. But much is scamy too: fake UL marks and associated fires etc. Amazon has played a large part in this.
So the regulatory frameworks are not keeping up. The wave is coming.
Trump sees the wave and the nationalism from China. Without the later, it would be another Germany or Japan technology powerhouse. What did trump do? Steel tariffs. Huh. Bizarre.
27. April 2022 at 22:53
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10313053/amp/Covid-19-UK-Wuhan-lab-leak-likely-origin-Covid-MPs-told.html
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/16/politics/biden-intel-review-covid-origins/index.html
What an absolutely disgraceful post.
You remind me of
John Mearsheimer, being a useful
Idiot for Russia, but in your case, it’s China.
And you are a fool if you believe China’s numbers.
27. April 2022 at 23:05
I’m sure Soviet opinion of America on the street in the 1950s and 1960s was terrible.
Kennedy and Eisenhower did not a give a damn and pursued America’s interests. With single minded precision.
Anything that weakens China short of all out hot war (which would be a nuclear catastrophe)is good as far as I’m concerned
I want vengeance for Covid 19.
We must win Cold War number 2.
Containment, economic tariffs should be the name of the game. And Taiwan should be free. It’s a liberal democracy constantly being threatened by a fascist nightmare. The Chinese government or Chinese people should not get to decide Taiwan’s future.
28. April 2022 at 05:44
“In WWII, we put Japanese Americans into concentration camps but German Americans remained free. Gee, I wonder why?”
Japan attacked Hawaii, where there was a large Japanese population that people suspected were spying on behalf of Japan. Japanese were concentrated near the Pacific coast, where the Japanese navy was considered a real threat. Germans had gotten scapegoated in the previous world war. There were measures taken against German & Italian Americans during WW2, but not on nearly the same scale:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_Americans
28. April 2022 at 05:53
Dzhaughn You said:
“Although supporting theft of IP, neglect of trade agreements, belligerance toward neighbors, oppression of minorities, conspiring to abuse candidates for office, support (even if tepid) of Russia’s invasion, didn’t help.”
Would you agree that:
1. We did lots of IP theft from Britain when we were a developing country.
2. We neglect our trade agreements even more than does China.
3. We are often belligerent toward our neighbors.
4. We have oppressed our minorities during earlier parts of our history.
5. Trump conspired to steal the 2020 election.
6. We supported Saudi Arabia’s brutal invasion of Yemen.
Obviously the Chinese government is much more repressive than the US government. But it wouldn’t be hard to put together a similar bill of complaints against the US. That’s no reason to launch a cold war.
Jason, So you link to a British tabloid article and a very out of date CNN article. And you say I’m a “fool”? Are you aware of all the recent evidence pointing to a natural origin? BTW, Alina Chan does not agree with Trump’s claim about the lab leak.
“I’m sure Soviet opinion of America on the street in the 1950s and 1960s was terrible.”
Are you? And how about Chinese opinion of America in the 1990s? Are you sure about that too?
“Taiwan should be free.” Obviously.
Fortunately, Taiwan is free. But they won’t remain free if they declare independence.
28. April 2022 at 07:34
TGGP, You call them “Japanese”, but the people put in concentration camps were often Americans. And there was no evidence that they were spies, just as there is no evidence that most Chinese students are spies. Hard to believe that in 2022 there are still people trying to excuse this racist policy. BTW, Germany also declared war on the US in 1941.
Thank God that Bush didn’t put Muslim students into concentration camps after 9/11.
28. April 2022 at 09:35
@Scott
Your premise was “why do they hate us”? Which was the “loonie” statement of the year–or top 2. Who are THEY? CCP? Tesla and Apple Employees? For some reason, you needed to get your hate Trump Jones going and you turned it into “why do they hate us”——-And I know quite a bit about China, (including 3 relatives who are Chinese citizens)—–but that has zero to do with my comment. My comment is about you trying to rile up some imagined American enemy—-who somehow always seems like Trump.
28. April 2022 at 10:29
“But they won’t remain free if they declare independence.”
This is a demonstration that China started the new Cold War. The one threatening invasion of a free country for stating the de facto truth certainly started it.
Which is why it makes the same amount of sense to ask why the Russians hate us.
It’s worthwhile to understand the enemy’s point of view, but if Taiwan would be invaded for stating what is de facto truth, the the PRC is an utterly evil regime no better than Putin’s Russia. I believe that many, many Russians hate the US and support Putin.
Not clear why I should care. Mainlander claims over Taiwan are ridiculous and have always been so, whether made by the ROC and KMT, or Qing China, just as Russian imperial claims have been ridiculous whether made by the tsars, Stalin, or Putin.
Perhaps the Chinese people (or Russian people, or German people) agree with their country’s aggression, perhaps not. You seem to be arguing that the Chinese people are rabid nationalists of the worst kind, imperialist and irredentist.
In your view, there can be no peace with not only the Chinese government, but the Chinese people.
28. April 2022 at 10:33
Scott out here with the “the US and the EU is at fault for the Russians hating us, because obviously the Russians would invade Ukraine if the EU signed a trade deal with Ukraine.”
You are a lover of nationalism, just other countries’ nationalism. Justifying Chinese nationalism and imperialism as though it’s some kind of force over which they have no agency. If they’re so nationalist as to approve of unprovoked war, then they started a new Cold War.
28. April 2022 at 10:49
“even though the US policy for decades has been that China and Taiwan are part of a single country.”
While it would be more consistent arguably with US policy for decades to announce that we are giving the ROC military support to reunify China under ROC leadership, under any sort of sane world that would be considered more provocative that recognition of the status quo.
However, for some reason Taipei arguing that it is the rightful ruler of the mainland is viewed as less provocative, because of crazy nationalism. Yet somehow we mustn’t blame that nationalism for starting a Cold War, because it’s been policy for decades.
28. April 2022 at 10:59
John, You said:
“Mainlander claims over Taiwan are ridiculous and have always been so, whether made by the ROC and KMT, or Qing China, just as Russian imperial claims have been ridiculous whether made by the tsars, Stalin, or Putin.”
Both the Taiwanese and the US government have an official one China policy. You and I might prefer two Chinas, but to call this policy ridiculous shows a lack of understanding as to how the world works. Do you think Spain would allow Catalonia to secede, just because they wanted to and had a better local government? And the Catalans actually speak another language.
“the PRC is an utterly evil regime no better than Putin’s Russia.”
Your view of the PRC government has no bearing on this post. I am discussing the views of Chinese citizens. And let’s wait until they invade multiple countries that are internationally recognized as independent before we compare them to Russia.
I know that all you China haters are resentful that I was right about Russia being the greater threat to world peace, but your over the top reactions are immature.
You said:
“It’s worthwhile to understand the enemy’s point of view”
When did China become the enemy?
You said:
“You are a lover of nationalism, just other countries’ nationalism. Justifying Chinese nationalism”
LOL, the absurdity of comments in this post is almost beyond belief. I’ve criticized Chinese nationalism a thousand times. And I certainly don’t approve of China’s Taiwan policy. What is wrong with you people, do you not know how to read?
You said:
“Scott out here with the “the US and the EU is at fault for the Russians hating us, because obviously the Russians would invade Ukraine if the EU signed a trade deal with Ukraine.””
This is unworthy of a 4th grader. Grow up.
28. April 2022 at 12:33
Scott, aren’t there many valid reasons why the US would defend Taiwan but not Ukraine?
Ukraine doesn’t have a globally important semiconductor industry, for example.
To suggest that it is down to racism (unless I’m misinterpreting you) seems a bit strong, no?
28. April 2022 at 14:02
Scott,
Sorry for my hysterical comment, it came out of an honest feeling that your comment was hysterical in the first place. Do you understand that? Try to put yourself in my shoes for once.
Let me also add a non-hysterical comment, I’m surprised no one has written this yet; even though Carl was already very good. Let’s do it then:
What you wrote is really your criticism of America. It’s your liberal-libertarian worldview. And pretty much one to one. You seriously want to claim here that very many Chinese share your liberal-libertarian worldview. What a fantastique, surreal coincidence. That’s why the CCP rules there very successfully, because there are 200 million Scott Sumners running around in CCP China. Sorry if I’m not buying it.
Scott, be intellectually honest for once and admit that this is your critique of America. Nothing more, nothing less. Your blog entry has as much to do with the real opinions of the average Chinese as brimstone butterflies have to do with brimstones.
28. April 2022 at 14:18
1. Anyone who believes in self determination supports Taiwan, just as they support the people in Donbass. Only a totalitarian seeks to impose their will upon others. Taiwan doesn’t want anything to do with the CCP – for obvious reasons, and Donnbas wants nothing to do with Kiev.
2. Tariffs are not illegal. The world trade organization, which seeks to take power away from the individual American voter, and place that power into the hands of international apparatchiks is unconstitutional. Tariffs are designed to protect American workers from low paid labor. Manufacturing is not just important for employing low skilled labor, but it’s also a primary catalyst to future innovation.
3. We restrict SOME Chinese investment for security reasons – and also because they restrict our investment. Free trade only works if both sides play by the same rules. If one side forces companies to hand over their intellectual property, but the other side doesn’t, then clearly one side has an advantage. That is an outcome you may want – since you are pro CCP, but most Americans don’t see our business and trade relationship as a win/win.
4. You’ve been told numerous times that Bolton’s statement is most likely incorrect. Nobody else at that meeting agrees with Bolton’s statements. You don’t believe the others who were in the room, but you believe the one guy who says what you “hope to believe”, predicated on your own bias towards Trump and conservatives more broadly.
5. Not worth my time responding too.
6. Yes, the death rate was lower. They also used totalitarian state control to destroy any vestige of movement. America doesn’t operate that way. America is a republic, not a totalitarian state.
7. The President doesn’t claim that everyone is a spy. You were triggered by your own bias, and are now engaging in hyperbole.
8. Billions to Jared Kushner??? I hope you have real evidence, and that his is not just more speculation. And again, why don’t you ever mention Biden and his family corruption? The Chinese didn’t send 1B to Hunter Biden’s investment company? The laptop doesn’t exist? Those emails were all fake? Hmmm….you need to place the shoe on the other foot, otherwise you will continue to sound VERY biased.
9. Yes, the interment camps were a bad idea. But this is precisely why you don’t want countries using “emergency” to justify taking away your rights. You propose “emergency declaration” for things you agree with – such as total management of the virus, but you don’t agree with emergency power when it involves things you disagree with – such as interment camps. Your philosophy is not well grounded. It is full of contradictions. Emergency power is NEVER acceptable when it violates the bill of rights.
28. April 2022 at 14:31
Kushner did get a $2 billion investment from Saudi Arabia. And then 2 and 20 on performance. So he didn’t get 2 billion but 40 million a year fee and upside.
28. April 2022 at 14:55
Bolton is a known hawk, and a liar.
Why do you support NATO’s effort to defend Ukraine, but don’t support NATO’s effort to defend Taiwan? And how do you support NATO, when NATO is predominetly funded and managed by the United States, the very government that you claim is so terrible? In other words, you trust this terrible and horrible government when they tell you that Russia is conducting a false flag, and that you must send billions in arms, but you don’t trust them when they raise tariffs for workers or engage in brinkmanship over Taiwan?
I don’t think the United States should be involved with Taiwan or Ukraine, but your view doesn’t appear to be logically consistent.
You said:
“The Economist recently pointed out that the Chinese public reads Chinese propaganda “backwards”.”
Like most Economist articles, this is patently false. I’ve lived in Shanghai, and nobody talks like that. The global travelers are informed, but the general population is not. Most people believe what the CCP tells them – that is, they believe the anti-american sentiment propogated by the party’s mouth piece.
About the college kids – there is no doubt that the CCP has sought to use college kids as a means of inifiltrating companies and academies, and there is no doubt that confucious institutes are designed to lobby universities and government. But they dont just target the U.S. We have the same problem in my country. The CCP is carrying out a global strategy. Sadly, due to the CCP, the students from China do need to be vetted.
Their were influential conservatives, like Ralp Carr, who believed Japanese internment was uncosntitutional, but the democrats widely supported the internment camps.
28. April 2022 at 17:07
One thing Sumner misses is the increased risks assaults and physical abuses many Asian migrants and students face. While largely unreported by American media, every time a Chinese student got assaulted, the news spreads like wild fire among Chinese social media groups. For them, America is no longer safe.
While US politicians and in fact many commenters here love to claim they’re anti-CPC not anti Chinese, everytime US sanctions a Chinese company or imposes tariffs on Chinese products, some people or even many ppl’s jobs come under threat. The only conclusion they can make is US plans to bring down China and together the Chinese ppl with it.
28. April 2022 at 22:26
So tell me, Mr. Sumner, where exactly did I recommend launching a cold war with China? Not my idea of a good time.
I’ll stipulate to all your points. I am disputing your causal claim, and your points do not support that claim. The driver of the conflict is the respective domestic political situations.
29. April 2022 at 19:51
I was not trying to “excuse” the policy, but to explain* it. I said they were “suspected” of spying because people did suspect that at the time. I did not say they actually were spying. And I simply said “Japanese” so as not to differentiate between citizens & non-citizens, since the policy itself was to intern both.
*I like to remind people that the USG has violated the 3rd Amendment and gotten away with it during the Aleutian Islands campaign of WW2, and one can explain WHY that occurred (whereas most regard the idea of 3rd Amendment violations as a joke) without denying that it was an unjustified constitutional violation.
“Thank God that Bush didn’t put Muslim students into concentration camps after 9/11.”
That’s a religion rather than a nationality. The hijackers were Saudis & Egyptians, and we didn’t go to war with either country as the attacks were not attributed those governments. Without any government to spy for (and a terrorist group like al Qaeda not having much of an intelligence apparatus) focus instead was on making air travel safer. I happen to think creating the TSA/DHS were bad ideas, but it’s understandable WHY they were created, just as it was also understandable why we invaded Afghanistan even though that turned out to be an enormous waste (I recall you disagreed about that, but we don’t need to relitigate that here).
29. April 2022 at 20:27
Scott,
This was an excellent post of yours in which you argue that cultural preferences and expediency, rather than religious beliefs, determine political behavior:
https://www.themoneyillusion.com/religion-plays-almost-no-role-in-politics/
Your point is taken, but I will not be surprised if the majority, if not all of the crazy right-wing comments on a post such as the current one, are religious fundamentalists.
I’m still waking up to the seeming fact that religious fundamentalism is extremely dangerous. This is not because ancient religious texts are being interpreted absurdly and relied on as absolute truth, but rather that those who fall victim to such absurd beliefs are gullible and primed for manipulation by demagogues and grifters. These are disburbingly unsophisticated people, in the worst sense of the words. They are naked ID personified.
That’s not to say all religious fundamentalists are a problem. I don’t see the Quakers as a problem, for example. And it’s not to say the non-fundamentalists are a problem. I’m referring to Christian nationalists in the West and eastern Europe, Hindu nationalists in India, orthodox extremists in Israel, Muslim extremists in various regions, etc.
It should hence not be surprising that there’s so much overlap with other forms of bigotry in these religious extremist populations, including racial, gender, cultural, sexual orientation/identity, etc. This is the lowest form of the human common denominator.
30. April 2022 at 05:40
Michael Sandifer, I think you are using the term “fundamentalist” incorrectly. It derives from a divide within Protestant Christianity, which is unusually focused on the text of the Bible. In other faiths like Catholicism, Judaism & Islam (we might also add the Amish, though they started out as radical Protestants) there’s more of an emphasis of a built-up tradition/dogma from religious elites rather than the “fundamentals” derived from a text any man can act as his own priest in interpreting. This is related to a religion being philosophical vs legalist and emphasizing orthodoxy vs orthopraxy.
30. April 2022 at 08:21
Walter, If we need to go to war over semiconductor supplies, wouldn’t it be cheaper to develop our own sources? And why not ask the Taiwanese to spend some money on their own defense? Why should we defend them if they are not willing to defend themselves?
China’s invasion of Taiwan would be bad (and I’d support sanctions, as I supported Russia sanctions), but Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and other countries like Georgia is much worse. Ukraine is not legally part of Russia. Taiwan is legally part of China. International law is far more important than semiconductor supplies.
Christian, You say it’s a loony comment. But Steve Waldman (see link above) says my post was very “effective”. Steve’s much smarter than you or I, so why should I trust your claim that my comment is loony?
Then you promise a non-hysterical comment, and give me this nonsense:
“You seriously want to claim here that very many Chinese share your liberal-libertarian worldview.”
Yes, all 1.4 billion Chinese share my libertarian viewpoint, as I clearly said in this post. Sigh . . .
Try again.
TGGP, Well, if you aren’t trying to excuse the policy, then you presumably agree with my view that it was motivated by racism.
After all, there was no logical reason to assume Japanese Americans were spies.
Ricardo, So you trust Trump’s word over Bolton’s. LOL.
And Trump promised he would pick the “best people” to run his government. So why did he pick dozens of liars who smeared him after they left his employment?
Mark C. You said:
“While US politicians and in fact many commenters here love to claim they’re anti-CPC not anti Chinese”
This comment section is a good example of your point. I do a post discussing the Chinese public (not government), and a bunch of commenters respond by criticizing the Chinese government and falsely accusing me of defending that government.
30. April 2022 at 09:27
TGGP,
It did occur to me after posting my comments that it’s better to just call the Christians I have in mind “Christian nationalists”, because there is a non-trivial portion of Christian fundamentalists who are not presenting the problems I’m talking about.
30. April 2022 at 17:24
I recommend reading up on The Non-Racism of American Evil. The US government does lots of awful things, and you can’t just assume the reason is “racism”. Ignoring the fact that Germany & Italy did not launch a surprise attack on the US without declaring war (unlike Japan) just makes it seem like you’re pretending to be dumber than I know you to be. Likewise ignoring how anti-German the US was in the previous world war when the Germans were accused of dishonorably sinking our ships. Your former EconLog co-blogger Bryan Caplan would say that people are prone to herding & hysterical crusades, and in most of those examples you can see how a salient event acted as a “seed” to crystallize public focus on the Current Thing.
During the anti-Japanese hysteria in the wake of Pearl Harbor the US government distributed info on how to distinguish between the perfidious enemy Japanese and their noble Chinese opponent. They had to distribute such information because the typical American could not really distinguish between those races. And Americans had been racist against Chinese (in a different way than their racism against, say, African-Americans) when they passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, arguably less respectfully than when they had a bilateral “gentleman’s agreement” with the Japanese government on immigration.
1. May 2022 at 08:26
If you are interested Andrew Sullivan wrote a very good book on the dangers of fundamentalism. It is the culture I grew up in and my extended family still lives. The danger, among others, is that if you believe God sanctions your preferences there are no limits on what you can do to carry them out. You know that God approves.
Daughter is moving to Shanghai in 2 months for a 5 year work stint there. Hope to get some perspective from her on how Chinese feel about us.
Steve
1. May 2022 at 09:23
TGGP, If you don’t think there was overwhelming racism against Japanese-Americans in 1941 then you need to read a bit more history.
As far as the sneak attack, wasn’t 9/11 a similar example? But I didn’t see Bush putting Muslim students studying in America into camps, even though 9/11 was done by Muslim students studying in America. The sneak attack angle doesn’t in any way justify what was done.
I agree about the Chinese exclusion act, another example of anti-Asia-bigotry in America. This pattern occurs far too often to be coincidence.
Steve, Shanghai is one of China’s best cities (especially for Westerners). I wish your daughter good luck.
1. May 2022 at 17:05
I think it’s time for red states, especially Texas, to leave the Union.
There is no reconciling our differences anymore. The democrats/socialists are interested in restricting speech, locking people in their homes, controlling media narratives, sexualization of children, equality of outcome, soft money, opening borders to drive down wages, international interventionism, social credit scores, and more regulation and centralization of industry and government.
The conservative libertarians want decentralization, deregulation, hard money, free speech, neutral international policy, merit-based immigration, merit-based employment, and a night watchmen state that doesn’t involve itself in personal or business affairs.
The relationship between the two can no longer be repaired. The left has gone way too far left, and the right doesn’t want to deal with them anymore. We need to worry about preserving our wealth from the socialist actors, our children’s futures, and staying true to the framers vision of a free state without a coercive central government. It makes sense for all parties to split. As the socialists governments begin to fade under the stress of unsustainable debt, Texas will prosper under the framers vision. It’s the best solution for the people living there, and for like-minded states.
2. May 2022 at 06:33
Scott—I referred to the public not the CCP–I also stated that Americans thinking the Chinese people hate us is an absurd statement. I also stated that your reasons for us believing the Chinese hate us were ridiculous. And—as one commenter implied above, you do sound like someone who believes Chinese people are good, and more rational than Americans–i.e., that is my perception.
Of course you do not think that (I assume) but there is some kind of dislike that floats out of you toward Americans re: Chinese. I wish you would not talk about this—it sounds weird.
2. May 2022 at 07:09
Thanks Scott. Her husband lived in Beijing for 2 years for a prior job so I think they sort of know what they are getting into and are looking forward to it. They are trying to choose between living in the city vs on the outskirts. (They have a 6 y/o) They asked me my opinion and I suggested they try living in the city. Why move to China to live in the suburbs? Other kids handle living in the city and it is an experience for him. Hope it was good advice.
2. May 2022 at 08:10
Ragnar, I have to laugh when I read people claiming that the American right is “libertarian”. Which states have banned marijuana? Which states are trying to ban abortion? Which party is opposed to high skilled immigration? Which party put high tariffs on imports in 2018? Which party is increasingly supportive of restrictive zoning regulations? Which party wants to ban companies from mandating vaccines?
“sexualization of children,”
Oh, and which party is riddled with bizarre conspiracy nuts?
Steve, Shanghai is a pretty safe city for kids–at least in terms of not having much violent crime.
2. May 2022 at 11:19
It’s become very clear. This blog is for trolling and traffic.
3. May 2022 at 07:30
“This blog is for trolling”
The comment section certainly is.
3. May 2022 at 11:43
I brought up the Chinese Exclusion Act because I was not arguing that there was not racism against Asians (and, again, was not trying to “justify” but to explain). I was arguing that the CAUSE of internment was obviously Pearl Harbor. Chinese became* our allies rather than prisoners not because Americans had been more racist against the Japanese than them but because it was the Japanese that attacked us. And I brought up World War I because the US became very anti-German specifically then, even though there were other members of the Central Powers (just not ones blamed for U-boats and the Zimmerman telegram) and we officially became enemies of the Austro-Hungarian empire when we declared war on them as well (preceded by some unconvincing claims that they had sunk a German-downed ship and carried out sabotage).
*The US government had sided with them against Japan’s invasion earlier, but this made us actual belligerents.
9/11 was an act of terrorism or “sneak attack”, but as I said it could not be attributed to any government. “Muslims” are not a nationality that we can declare war against, nor had a majority-Muslim country been willing to actually go to war with us (that so many Muslim governments were client states of the US was one of Bin Laden’s big complaints). To go into further detail, every 9/11 hijacker was of Arab ethnicity, but I don’t think a majority of American Muslims are Arab and my understanding is that a majority of Arab Americans aren’t Muslim either. The “war on terror” was to be waged on al Qaeda and other groups declared to be terrorists by our government, and while our government was quite foolish on that matter it was not so simpleminded as to think that meant going to war with Muslims or even Arab Muslims generally (though blaming Iraq was dumber than blaming Saudi Arabia).
You used the term “concentration camp”, which is nowadays associated with the Holocaust but was of course invented earlier. The British used them against the Boers, and it wasn’t because they were “racist” against them but instead because they thought that it made tactical sense to prevent the civilian Boer population from supporting irregular fighters. This ultimately worked, although the Boers were certainly sore about it afterward (one later South African Prime Minister was pro-German in WW2). Earlier the US government had a long history of conflict with native Americans and wound up placing them on reservations. Richard Henry Pratt, the first to use the word “racism” to describe a viewpoint he opposed (and thus arguably the first “anti-racist”), ran the Carslisle school where some of these resettled natives were to be assimilated, summarized with the slogan “Kill the Indian, save the man”.
It would be accurate to say that early US history was characterized by racism against both native & African Americans to the extent that the Constitution made legal distinctions for them, but that almost elides as much as it reveals given how differently they were treated. For the former there was genocidal warfare followed by assimilation, for the latter there was slavery (only briefly tried on natives, as too many died) and legal subordination with not even Lincoln regarding social equality as a goal. How are we to explain this difference, since “racism” by itself doesn’t suffice? I assert that there were obviously differences in the histories of interaction between each group and the settlers who formed the American government. For the former there was lots of warring between the two, which made them somewhat like a peer state that could form “nations” within the territorial US but not ones to reach an enduring peaceful accord on the Westphalian model. Thomas Barnett once compared the “global war on terror” to that period of Indian wars, but he thought we needed to develop other countries rather than do some kind of assimilation of Muslims in America (all hijackers were foreign nationals), but he was just some “public intellectual” rather than someone actually making policy or representative of any popular political movement.
Returning now to the original question, I assert that the difference between how the US treated Japanese vs Germans & Italians can obviously be traced back to it being the Japanese that attacked Pearl Harbor. We can ask the counterfactual question of what would have happened if instead it was the Germans who launched an attack on us and then the Japanese added their own declaration of war to support the alliance. Would we have interned Germans? Obviously, yes, since we DID intern Germans & Italians in reality! The question would then be one of scale (since it was a relatively small number of non-citizens in reality). And I would guess that one reason not to expect quite so large a fraction to be interned (aside from them tending to live in the Midwest away from the coasts, being here for more generations and in larger numbers less practical to deal with as was the case with Japanese in Hawaii) is that America had already had its kulturkampf against Germans, both during WW1 and to a lesser extent when the Klan was riding high against immigrant schools & culture of drinking in the 20s. So then we might ask what would have happened in a further counterfactual where Germany had launched an attack on us comparable to Pearl Harbor during WW1? My guess is that despite their white skin and the protective factors I mentioned in that parenthetical, I would definitely not want to be a German-American in that counterfactual.
4. May 2022 at 02:35
This is all pretty much on the nose except that it vastly overestimates the impact of real international facts on public sentiment. Most Chinese people couldn’t cite most of the facts you listed; their opinions are tribal and emotive just like anyone else’s. But the facts are true, and they impact official policy, which is refracted through the official media, which sets the tone for nationalist sentiment. So yes, indirectly, this story is right.
6. May 2022 at 20:07
“1. A former (and possibly future) secretary of state recently declared that Taiwan should declare independence from China, even though the US policy for decades has been that China and Taiwan are part of a single country. How would you expect the Chinese people to react to our trying to break up their country?”
I’m OK with the Chinese hating us about this. Taiwan is a democracy, whereas China is an authoritarian dictatorship.
“5. At one point they even claimed to have evidence that the virus escaped from a Chinese lab. The evidence did not exist; it was all a lie. How would you expect the Chinese people to react to our lies?”
This issue is far from settled, and it would be premature to call it a lie. If the lab leak hypothesis is false, then why is China denying the WHO from fully investigating it? Alina Chan has done plenty of research about this topic and wrote a whole book about it. Although it’s far from definitive, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it *could* be true.
Let’s also remember that China downplayed or even covered up the seriousness of SARS in 2003 and COVID in 2020. RIP Li Wenliang.
“People will respond by telling me all sorts of awful things about the Chinese government. And guess what, all of that is true. But that hasn’t changed since the 1990s.”
That’s plainly false; things have gotten WAY worse since the 1990s. Back then, the Uyghurs still had their freedom and basic rights, Hong Kong still had its independence, and the Chinese government wasn’t developing a warm relationship with the Taliban.
I agree with you that America has done plenty of bad things toward China (as you listed) and deserves some of the anti-American sentiment among the Chinese. However, China does much worse things to its own people and its neighbors near and far, and many Chinese are too brainwashed or too ignorant to know just **how** bad those things are, especially when it comes to how the Chinese government bullies other countries. America and the rest of the world have plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize China, yet many (most?) Chinese are too stubborn to acknowledge these legitimate reasons.
“But my sense is that the Chinese people heavily discount CCP propaganda.”
You should talk to some of the Chinese who have immigrated to American or are studying there. They may be analytically smart enough to get into the top programs in science and engineering, but some of they say the stupidest things that are straight out of the CCP’s propaganda playbook, and they have no shame about it. Tiananmen Square massacre? It was a “valid and just response by the government toward the protesters”, according to some of these zombies.
Many of your criticisms about America are right, but c’mon, Scott. China lacks the accountability and the honesty to claim any righteousness regarding its poor relations with America and the rest of the West.
6. May 2022 at 21:52
Justin, I don’t think you read my post very carefully, as you are attributing to me views that I do not hold. You said:
“c’mon, Scott. China lacks the accountability and the honesty to claim any righteousness regarding its poor relations with America and the rest of the West.”
This post is not a defense of the Chinese government–I detest the CCP.
“I agree with you that America has done plenty of bad things toward China (as you listed) and deserves some of the anti-American sentiment among the Chinese.”
Well then we agree, as that was exactly my claim. I never said we deserve all of the anti-American sentiment among the Chinese.
I don’t buy Alina Chan’s claims, and indeed the evidence increasing suggests that she was wrong. But even if she were 100% correct (which is possible) it would have no bearing on the post. Chan completely rejects Trump’s claim that we have proof of a Chinese lab leak—indeed she is agnostic on the issue. Trump and Pompeo lied, and then failed to come up with evidence to back their claim.
“You should talk to some of the Chinese who have immigrated to American or are studying there.”
What makes you think I don’t know dozens of such people? Yes, I’ve met Chinese people with crazy views. Obviously there are poorly informed people in all countries. (How many Americans believe Trump won the 2020 election. A third?)
I agree that Taiwan’s government is far superior to the CCP, but Pompeo’s proposed policy (if carried out) would increase the risk of war. That’s why the Taiwanese government has the good sense not to abandon their one China policy.
As far as the 1990s, it’s true that in many ways China has gone backwards. But it’s also true that in many ways it’s gone forward. (Much less free speech, but also much less petty corruption, no more one child policy, more gay rights, etc.) But that has nothing to do with the current US policy on China, which developed before the Hong Kong crackdown and has nothing to do with the Uyghurs. Do you think that US officials care at all about the plight of the Uyghers?
7. May 2022 at 06:59
Scott, don’t accuse me of not reading your post carefully. It’s intellectually dishonest and lazy discourse. I did read your post carefully, and responded to your details. I specifically noted that I agreed with you on some of your points. If you want to make that accusation, you better show me where I carelessly misinterpreted your points. Otherwise, stop this derogatory language.
“I don’t buy Alina Chan’s claims, and indeed the evidence increasing suggests that she was wrong.”
It’s fine if you don’t buy her claim, but China hasn’t opened itself to the WHO to investigate the whole thing. How could we ever fully resolve this issue with the CCP’s lack of transparency? You sound so confident that the lab leak theory is wrong, yet any intellectually honest person should conclude by saying “We don’t know, because we don’t have enough evidence, and China is not allowing us to gather the evidence.”
“Trump and Pompeo lied, and then failed to come up with evidence to back their claim.”
I think that Trump made that accusation out of bad faith and to stir up anti-Chinese sentiment in his base, and I hate it. The Chinese have every right to be angry at Trump for saying that and the “kung flu” non-sense. Nonetheless, to accuse him of “lying” is to imply that
A. Trump KNEW that the lab leak theory is wrong
B. he deliberately said that the lab leak theory is true
Right now, we don’t know if the lab leak theory is right or wrong, so we can’t say anything definitive about A. Also, we don’t have proof of B.
“What makes you think I don’t know dozens of such people? Yes, I’ve met Chinese people with crazy views.”
Because you wrote “But my sense is that the Chinese people heavily discount CCP propaganda.” That’s why I quoted this before I accused you of not taking their crazy views seriously enough. Did YOU read my comments carefully, Scott? The Chinese do NOT discount the CCP’s propaganda; they buy the bulk of it. As you even acknowledge yourself, they hold crazy views even after coming to America. They still think of Mao as a hero. They still think that Deng was right to shot those protesters in Tiananmen Square. They still think that Japan has never apologized for WW2. They still think that China is an innocent victim of foreign attacks and never bother to acknowledge how it invaded other countries. Most importantly, they refuse to believe just truly how awful their own government treats ethnic minorities, whether its Uyghurs or Tibetans, or weak neighbors like Vietnam. Yeah, Scott – you’re dead wrong on this one.
“I agree that Taiwan’s government is far superior to the CCP, but Pompeo’s proposed policy (if carried out) would increase the risk of war. That’s why the Taiwanese government has the good sense not to abandon their one China policy.”
I agree that Taiwan has to explicitly maintain One China to lower the risk of war, but that’s geopolitical self-preservation talk. What they truly want in practice is to be left alone by the CCP, and that’s the way it should be. If the Chinese want what’s best for Taiwan, then they should support Taiwan’s independence, not get angry at America or the world for supporting it.
“As far as the 1990s, it’s true that in many ways China has gone backwards. But it’s also true that in many ways it’s gone forward. (Much less free speech, but also much less petty corruption, no more one child policy, more gay rights, etc.) But that has nothing to do with the current US policy on China…”
Nothing? NOTHING??? You cannot be serious, Scott. Cozying up to the Taliban IS a threat to America and the rest of the world. America (and the rest of the world) want China to stop its authoritarian dictatorship and its bullying tactics internationally; rounding up the Uyghurs and cracking down on Hong Kong only reinforces that authoritarian streak, which makes it hard for everyone else to deal with it in a trusting way. Yes, American probably doesn’t care a lot about the Uyghurs themselves, but do you really want to grab a beer with your next door neighbor Jim if you knew that he beats up his wife?
Again, I agree with some of your specific points, but your overall attitude seems to be stubbornly holding onto some pretty obvious blind spots (lab leak, discounting propaganda, domestic/foreign bullying). Your overall thesis is fine, and I agree that the Chinese have legit gripes about America, but your arguments show some stunning ignorances.
7. May 2022 at 10:25
It’ll be interesting, and perhaps not in a good way, to see how committed the US is to defending Taiwan. If the US were fully committed, then presumably the best thing to do would have been to have settled the issue permanently decades ago when China was significantly weaker. That would mean directly confronting China militarily, if need be. And no, I don’t think it would have caused a nuclear war, though one can never be certain. That’s part of what makes nuclear diplomacy also “interesting”.
Perhaps expectations for China’s philosophical liberalization in conjunction with its economic liberalization were over-optimistic, which has caused the US to underplan for future contingencies. At this point, time is on China’s side, assuming they continue to grow more powerful relative to the US and our allies. And how useful would our allies be?
A China that continues to grow relatively more powerful economically and militarily will have an increasing ability to take Taiwan while minimizing even the economic consequences. Who wants to sanction the regional trade hegemon, especially if its also the regional military hegemon? And could China grow so powerful that even Taiwan wouldn’t bother to fight?
I often wonder whether nuclear non-proliferation was ever a worthy goal. Sure, in a world in which international law is steadily developing and consensus in favor of free markets and republican government is steadily growing, nuclear non-proliferation increasingly makes sense. But, absent that trend, especially given developments over the past generation, perhaps it’s better to arm our weaker allies with nuclear weapons and high tech regional delivery systems. MAD does create incentives to limit armed conflict.
7. May 2022 at 21:12
Justin, You said:
“Scott, don’t accuse me of not reading your post carefully. It’s intellectually dishonest and lazy discourse.”
But you already decided I’m intellectually dishonest because I don’t agree with your views on lab leaks. I think you better read what you say about me before casting stones.
You are probably aware that many scientists who were leaning toward the lab leak view have now shifted to natural origin as new information has become available. So my leaning toward the natural origin is hardly out of step with the scientific community. I’ve done a number of posts on this if you are interested. I never said a lab leak was impossible, and I’ve argued many times that for policy purposes we should assume the lad leak theory is true, and not do gain of function research.
By the way, I’d have a much higher opinion of the CCP if the lab leak were true, as the animal market hypothesis is far more embarrassing for China. The US has occasional lab leaks, but no wild animal markets. I believe the CCP is covering up the animal market origin of the virus.
As for your other points, I’ve met many Chinese people who don’t buy government propaganda. I agree that the Chinese people should be less nationalistic, as should all people.
I have no idea what you mean by cozying up to the Taliban. We have good relations with some of the most evil regimes on Earth, notably Saudi Arabia.
I’d like to see both the US and China stop bullying countries, although Russia is 10 times worse than either of those two countries. Russia is the real enemy of the free world.
Michael, Given that Taiwan doesn’t seem interested in defending itself (it’s military spending is pathetic), I can’t imagine why the US should. Nonetheless, if China invaded Taiwan I’d favor economic sanctions. If sanctions are the appropriate policy against Russia, why wouldn’t they be appropriate for China?
9. May 2022 at 12:07
“But you already decided I’m intellectually dishonest because I don’t agree with your views on lab leaks. I think you better read what you say about me before casting stones.”
Yeah, I mean EXACTLY what I wrote, and you ARE intellectually dishonest. By now writing “I never said a lab leak was impossible”, you are already contradicting yourself. YOUR ORIGINAL POST CALLED IT A “LIE”! C’mon Scott! When you accuse Trump of lying, you are accusing him of DELIBERATELY saying something false when he KNOWS that it is false. If you really believe that lab leak is possible, then retract your original statement and acknowledge this.
“As for your other points, I’ve met many Chinese people who don’t buy government propaganda.”
Strike three. Then retract your comment that the Chinese heavily discount CCP propaganda.
“I have no idea what you mean by cozying up to the Taliban. We have good relations with some of the most evil regimes on Earth, notably Saudi Arabia.”
Google it yourself. The Chinese government has publicly said that it is ready for “friendly and cooperative relations” with the Taliban, and it will offer economic support to them. I hate America for cozying up to Saudi Arabia (brutalizing its own people and supporting 9/11 attackers), but that doesn’t excuse China’s relations with a known terrorist group.
You repeatedly refuse to admit your wrong/careless statements, and that makes you sound like the CCP itself: stubborn, gaslighting, and intellectually dishonest.
9. May 2022 at 16:44
Justin, If you want to argue that China’s relation with the Afghan government are just as bad as our relations with the Saudis, I won’t disagree. Great powers have immoral foreign policies, it’s just a question of how bad.
Your claims about lab leaks are getting hysterical. Please take a deep breath. I never suggested that Trump lied by claiming there was a lab leak, I said he lied in claiming that the US government had evidence of a lab leak. It did not and does not. That was a lie. I’ve asserted dozens of times that a lab leak was possible.
“Then retract your comment that the Chinese heavily discount CCP propaganda.”
Nope, why should I?