“We are not conspiracy theorists”

Prominent lab leaker proponents like Alina Chan were hugely disappointed by the recent data dump from our intelligence services. They predicted bombshells and got nothing of interest. This tweet made me smile:

Presumably our CIA is now controlled by the CCP.

And it’s not just Chan.



26 Responses to ““We are not conspiracy theorists””

  1. Gravatar of Solon of the East Solon of the East
    24. June 2023 at 15:59

    I think a bat bit a raccoon dog which then snuck into the Wuhan lab facility and sneezed.

  2. Gravatar of Sara Sara
    24. June 2023 at 21:27

    Just a little reminder of your latest conspiracy theory’s.

    1. You claim Trump is secretly working for Putin (No evidence)
    2. You claim that Putin is secretly trying to take over Europe (no evidence)
    3. You told us the Virus originated in a Thai bat cave, and that China had nothing to do with it. (Weird, and once again no evidence)
    4. You advocated impeaching Trump over a thought crime, because you secretly knew what he was thinking during a phone call… (apparently you can read minds, who knew. And no evidence).
    5. You claim the virus would kill everyone if some people didn’t get vaccinated. (really weird, and refuted by thousands of scientists)
    6. You claimed that unarmed people wearing Viking costumes, taking pictures behind Nancy’s Pelosi’s desk were “domestic terrorists.” (apparently, you fail to grasp the difference between heavily armed battalions, like Wagner PMC, and a few unarmed bimbos and bimbolinas trespassing inside congress.
    7. You claim Tucker Carlsen, a journalist you disagree with, is a “threat to democracy” (no evidence freedom of speech is a threat to democracy)
    8. You claimed Trump was akin to Adolf Hitler (no evidence, and appalling statement)

    These are all radical left wing conspiracy theories to which you subscribe.

  3. Gravatar of David S David S
    24. June 2023 at 22:08

    Covid-19 was created by Obamacare and shipped to the Wuhan lab by Amazon Prime.

    I’m working on my sarcasm problem.

  4. Gravatar of Edward Edward
    24. June 2023 at 22:36

    Actually, I don’t think this is so far-fetched.

    The CCP wants to destroy America through capturing one party. This is part of Mao’s manifesto.

    And which party looks more like the CCP?

    Does the CIA openly support the policies of that CCP look-a-like? Yes, they do. Not the rank and file members, who have no authority, but the apparatchiks hand-picked by the administration to lead the CIA are certainly following the radical CCP path.

    Let’s have a look shall we.


    “We’re here, We’re queer, and we’re coming for your children.”

    And the CIA’s recruitment ad towards these woke imbeciles is proof that they align themselves with radical left policies.


    So one party openly advocates for centralized government, the war machine, claims to own our children, wants to shoot Trump in the head, and say republican reeducation camps are necessary to stop terrorism.

    And the CIA supports this.

    I’m just curious. Which party is the historical bad guy here?

    And if the CIA’s policies align with the historical bad guy, should we then be worried?

    I say, yes!

  5. Gravatar of Ricardo Ricardo
    25. June 2023 at 01:09

    Who cares Sumner!


    99% of Americans could care less where it originated. We just don’t want you and your coercive freaks to lock us down when the next one arrives. If you want to stay home, and get twenty boosters, go ahead. Don’t force it on everyone else, citing your pseudoscience hero Peter “Mega loser” Hotez.

    That’s all we ask. Freedom over fear mongering, because I can assure you if the virus had a high mortality rate you wouldn’t have to convince anyone to get a shot. They’d line up and wait.

    And Putin isn’t trying to steal the territory of Europe you crazy nut job. Please read about the 2014 coup, the Donbas secession, the Minsk agreement, then come back when you are somewhat knowledgeable on the issue. And don’t ask me to go fight for you like you did last time. Go fight yourself please. I’d rather have a beer with a Russian than kill them. You and Graham go to the front lines and wave your dicks at Putin. We’ll have a barbecue and some beer.

  6. Gravatar of Ricardo Ricardo
    25. June 2023 at 02:02


    Good to see real scientists speaking out. Who will have the courage to support Dawkins, and stop the communists?

    Anyway, you won’t win Sumner. Florida and Texas might be the two last bastions of liberty, but that is all we need. You and your thugs can have the rest. And if you take those two, we’ll move to an island. You’ll never stop the enlightenment. You will never stop Locke and Kant, because the truth always wins.

  7. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    25. June 2023 at 08:15

    Sara, Shockingly, point 6 does sort of reflect my views. The others are of course pure fabrication on your part.

  8. Gravatar of zshu223 zshu223
    26. June 2023 at 08:13

    I’m agnostic about all this, though the report has some interesting observations. For example, I would like to know the basis for differences in FBI’s and DOE’s LL judgements (even if both are wrong). With what information are they working? Are key pieces in the new report’s classified annex? They could both be wildly off base. If so, not publishing their underlying information (such that it can be subject to public scrutiny, including by academic scientists) leaves a void people can keep filling with speculation. If not, they may have something of interest to the public and the scientific community. Scott, I think I know where you stand on this debate generally, though would be curious what you make of specific differences like these in IC opinions (sorry, didn’t have time to write about the report’s other tidbits, like pangolins and the reported PLA connections).

  9. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    26. June 2023 at 08:40

    zshu, My new Econlog post doesn’t directly answer your question, but it’s my best guess as to why people see the picture in different ways.

  10. Gravatar of Samantha Samantha
    26. June 2023 at 09:45

    If not the lab, then where?

    There is no evidence it emerged from a wet market either.

    I could care less about Covid-19, but I do find it interesting that the same characters keep showing up in the same places. Peter Hotez has now been linked to the Wuhan Lab, as was Fauci before him. Both were earning millions from their CCP contacts.

    It’s hard to know who to trust anymore, because the country has descended into chaos.

    Nude bikers in Seattle are showing their dicks to my kids. We have CRT Marxism taking over schools. We’ve got black gangs violently destroying businesses in Chicago, and mass homelessness and drug use in SFO, Philadelphia, and Baltimore.

    Trump is being harassed and indicted by radical prosecutors. RFK Jr. is being harassed by the mainstream media (they’re obviously scared of him). Alan Dershowitz was threatened on Martha’s Vineyard over the weekend.

    The “Inclusive” Democrats want him to sell his property and leave their island because he committed the crime of disagreeing with the powers that be.

    USA Today tells us we don’t need to debate vaccine safety anymore, because it’s quote: not up for debate. So much for democracy.

    I think this country is in deep trouble. I don’t believe the CIA. I don’t believe anything the government says. They lie constantly.

  11. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    26. June 2023 at 10:30

    “If not the lab, then where?”


  12. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    26. June 2023 at 10:44


    Nearly every, if not every, prior human pandemic has involved the natural process of a mutating microbe becoming capable of infecting humans and jumping to humans from other species. The wet markets in Wuham are hence at least seemingly a good first place to look for evidence of origin.

    That said, especially given the lack of cooperation of the Chinese government, and what is in fact interference from them, we may never know the origin of Covid-19 with any certainty. Perhaps you’ll eventually realize that the exact origin really isn’t that important, especially compared with the task of trying to prevent future pandemics.

    The world, led by the US, should be pressuring China and every other country in the world to minimize pandemic risks, whatever the sources.

  13. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    26. June 2023 at 10:45


  14. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    26. June 2023 at 17:36


    the entire thing has long taken on the exact form of pretty much every UFO report / UFO sighting compilation / UFO secret government report leak ever.

  15. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    26. June 2023 at 20:58

    It should also be pointed out, though it shouldn’t have to be, that China did not benefit from the pandemic in any way. They suffered tremendous economic damage, at high human costs, including in loss of life. This isn’t something any politician would welcome. They have incentives to try to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

  16. Gravatar of David S David S
    27. June 2023 at 00:01

    Here’s some more conspiracy theories:

    -Xi is actively pursuing a range of policies designed to weaken China–excessive nationalism, idiotic responses to Covid, intellectual repression, pointless saber rattling, religious repression, etc….I think he’s been brainwashed by the CIA

    -Brexit was engineered by Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings to plunge their nation back into the medieval era because they believe that was a golden age for the British. People carrying around swords and stuff is wicked cool.

    -Jerome Powell and the other members of the Fed are setting themselves up to hold the Fed Funds rate higher than it should be and tanking the soft landing.

  17. Gravatar of Sara Sara
    27. June 2023 at 00:31

    Samantha, the people telling the truth, are often the people who are silenced.

    They are often the people that others refuse to debate.

    To Sumner, and the arrogant class of bimbos and bimbolinas, it’s all so clear. It originated from a Thai cave (no evidence) or originated from a wet market (no evidence), or originated anywhere but a lab because that might raise concerns about who funded the lab, what they are doing in those labs, etc. And we wouldn’t want that. Go back to work. Shut your mouth. Don’t ask questions.

    This is not up for debate because “Science says so.” Any claim to the contrary is heresy.

    They will tell you that those who disagree with the establishment, even the most prominent and cited academics, are conspiracy theorists and anti-scientists. But this is precisely the tactic radicals used in the Soviet Union. They start with an untruth, no matter how absurd, and then they promulgate that untruth with such voracity that the lie becomes the truth. Anyone who disagrees with the conclusion is “part of the problem” and must be reeducated. Indeed, in this type of radical society data itself can become the enemy of the people. Data can be the “terrorist” if it disagrees with their religion. Data can be an element of “whiteness” or the “wealthy”. Math itself can be a symbol of hate.

    People who are silenced are not always correct. However, if they are silenced then you should definitely take another look at what they have to say. Read the books they write. Ask yourself who is silencing them, and why they feel the need to silence them. RFJ Jr.’s YouTube videos are still being censored, which as you mentioned in your post shows us just how “inclusive” the left really is.

    And always take notice of people who giggle and simper when you ask a question.

    Then draw a conclusion that is your own.

  18. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    27. June 2023 at 07:52


    Who is being silenced? I see these conspiracy theories everywhere. If people are being silenced, why does it seem these people never shut up?

  19. Gravatar of Steve Steve
    27. June 2023 at 10:11

    Sumner is badly distorting Alina Chan and the CIA.

    CIA was required to declassify intelligence around the lab leak/virologists subsisting on pangolin and raccoon dog diets.

    So the CIA took what would normally be a report filled with black bars (redactions) and pulled the classified material into a classified annex. Boom! Suddenly it’s a completely declassified report except for the classified footnotes which are in another document.

    Total sleight of hand, which is the CIA expertise. Declassify by pulling all the classified material into a separate document!

    Second, the facetious and insincere remark “Presumably our CIA is now controlled by the CCP.” LOL, we don’t know exactly whom the CIA is protecting with over-classification, but there are three good bets: 1, itself by maximizing the hoarding of information 2, Tony Fauci and 3, diplomatic relations with China.

    Remember Blinken visited China and got dressed down a few days before the report release. Turns out China is an important supplier of components for the US Military!!!

    Raytheon relies on several thousand suppliers based in China, Hayes said.

    As for Tony Fauci, his NIAID funded patient zero Ben Hu https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/1671169130878341131

  20. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    27. June 2023 at 10:19

    Steve, That’s impressive. Certainly compared to you, Chan is not a conspiracy theorist at all!

  21. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    27. June 2023 at 10:20

    mbka, Wasn’t the same reporter involved in both stories?

  22. Gravatar of Steve Steve
    27. June 2023 at 10:20

    Tough to win a war against Russia when China is on Russia’s side and China is also a mission-critical supplier to the US Military.


  23. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    27. June 2023 at 17:35


    I didn’t check who wrote the various articles – but it wouldn’t surprise me the least if the UFO and lab leak stories were produced by the same people. They work in the exact same conspiracy pattern:

    – mysterious threat originating from “the outside world”
    – allegations that government knows more than they tell
    – endless “classified” stories that will soon be declassified and reveal all
    – insider accounts by whistleblowers sound credible
    – evidence is said to exist and be revealed soon
    – actual evidence is never shown
    – declassification event always a nothingburger
    – debunking followed by new variations of the same story
    – an explanation by natural phenomena is readily available but can only be plausible, never quite proven, and might be unfalsifiable. So a sinister plot can never be excluded. Sinister plot story definitely unfalsifiable, will therefore live forever.

    The last point is the real problem – yes a lab leak is absolutely possible and some circumstantial evidence is absolutely consistent. But what to believe will always depend on your belief system. If you believe in omnipotent government and obscure forces that threaten your life, then you will strongly believe in lab leaks and UFOs. If you believe in general human goodwill but fallibility of government and everyday incompleteness of scientific knowledge and expertise, then you’ll believe in much more mundane explanations. As I generally do.

  24. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    29. June 2023 at 05:11

    The unserious thinkers regarding Covid-19 origins are those who seem entirely focused on who to blame, rather than how we prevent future pandemics.

    If the a lab leak did unleash Covid-19 in China, it was a mistake. China certainly suffered tremendously, and continues to, as did the rest of the world. They have incentives not to make such mistakes, even if ultimately insufficient at times.

    Also, interestingly, many of the Covid-19 lab leak conspiracy theorists seem to minimize the danger of the virus itself. They seem to tend to be those who opposed many government and private efforts to deal with the virus.

    Perhaps this is because they think China purposely released a virus into the wild that was somewhat dangerous, but not nearly dangerous enough to warrant even wearing masks or limiting social gatherings. So, why was this so bad then? Is it just because it gave socialists/communists excuses to limit freedoms?

    There’s a lot of seeming incoherence in such thinking.

  25. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    29. June 2023 at 08:21


    I think the increasing willingness of the US government to openly discuss UFOs is significant. I take it very seriously, not because I think we’ve been visited by extraterrestrial/interdimensional aliens or time travelers, but because it at least may be further evidence of the wide adoption of conspiracy myths in general. There are potentially some social psychological/sociological phenomena regarding conspiracy ideas that we simply don’t fully understand. Also, some of the people in government discussing UFOs aren’t serious people. Take Marco Rubio, for example. People like him, and there are way too many of them in Congress, are willing to say nearly anything to try to boost their political prospects.

    I’m very skeptical of the actual claims that we’ve been visited, due in no small part to the signal to noise ratio when it comes to “evidence” presented. Why are pictures and video always of such low quality, despite the increasing quality of the cameras in nearly every person’s hand these days? One would think we’d at least have some high quality video by now, but I’ve never seen even one example.

  26. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    29. June 2023 at 18:25

    Hi Michael,

    completely agree with your thinking. Both on UFOS and Covid btw. On conspiracy theories in general, yes government being made of people, there might be some that cynically would say anything to get airtime, but there might very well be honest believers. And it’s quite possible that even Trump honestly believes some of his BS. As RFK evidently seems to as well.

    The older I get, the more I favor hardcore meritocracy. I tended to dismiss unfeeling technocrats as inappropriate for government, but given that the alternative is emotional irrational lunatics, I now gladly take the cold-hearted deep state.

    [They’re hiding those UFOs for a good reason! hahahahahaahaaaa!!!]

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