The believers

In the 2001 film “The Believer“, a character named Daniel Balint joins a neo-Nazi group.  The other members of the group are pretty dumb, as you’d expect.  But Daniel (played by Ryan Gosling) is brilliant, and also Jewish.  At one point in the film, the other neo-Nazi’s are denying the truth of the Holocaust, and Daniel fires back at them:

If Hitler didn’t kill six million Jews, why in the hell is he a hero?

That’s the irony at the center of the film; the only true neo-Nazi turns out to be a Jew.  I’m often reminded of that scene when I read the comment section.  Lots of Trump people (in my comment section) seem to believe that whites are a superior race.  They constantly tell me how awful other groups are.  And yet when I point to all the racist dog whistles put out by Trump, they use arguments that are too clever by half to insist that I’m delusional.  I almost want to grab them by the shoulders and scream, “If you don’t think Trump’s a racist, why in the hell do you like him so much?”

Mike Sax directed me to the following, from Business Insider:

According to a 1990 Vanity Fair interview, Ivana Trump once told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that her husband, real-estate mogul Donald Trump, now a leading Republican presidential candidate, kept a book of Hitler’s speeches near his bed.

“Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed …

When Brenner asked Trump about how he came to possess Hitler’s speeches, “Trump hesitated” and then said, “Who told you that?”

“I don’t remember,” Brenner reportedly replied.

Trump then recalled, “Actually, it was my friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of ‘Mein Kampf,’ and he’s a Jew.”

Brenner added that Davis did acknowledge that he gave Trump a book about Hitler.

“But it was ‘My New Order,’ Hitler’s speeches, not ‘Mein Kampf,'” Davis reportedly said. “I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I’m not Jewish.”

After Trump and Brenner changed topics, Trump returned to the subject and reportedly said, “If, I had these speeches, and I am not saying that I do, I would never read them.”

In the Vanity Fair article, Ivana Trump told a friend that her husband’s cousin, John Walter “clicks his heels and says, ‘Heil Hitler,” when visiting Trump’s office.

The Weekly Standard comments:

Now lots of ordinary people read Hitler for valid reasons, such as innocent historical fascination. But it seems particularly strange in light of Trump’s bizarre refusal to denounce David Duke, even as he apparently lies about knowing about the former KKK grand wizard.

And if you’re inclined to cruise down parts of the information superhighway where it’s a good idea not to roll down the window, you’ll see that Stormfront and lots of other racists think this detail is pretty significant.

I think it’s fair to say Trump’s got the the neo-Nazi and KKK vote locked up, time to go after the much bigger anti-Muslim vote.  Then the anti-Mexican vote.  There are so many people in the world that are not like us.  So many people to hate.

I’ve been pretty critical of Trump—even called him a moron.  But I do need to give him credit on this.  When he decides to learn something—like how to be a demagogue—he knows who the world class experts are.  And he’s a quick learner.


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97 Responses to “The believers”

  1. Gravatar of Chuck Chuck
    23. May 2016 at 10:46

    Hitler was a much better public speaker than Trump. He had a theatrical style whereas Trump speaks more extemporaneously, like a guy at a bar.

  2. Gravatar of bill bill
    23. May 2016 at 10:55

    That line from the Gosling’s character is a great line. I’ll have to remember that one.
    Trump is pretty fascinating but I don’t think I’ll ever understand how he’s gotten this far in this Presidential process.

    Tangent: our general election is more rigged than the primaries. Electoral College. How can 200,000 people in one state have the same voting impact as 700,000 in another?

  3. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 11:03

    nd yet when I point to all the racist dog whistles put out by Trump,

    If you can hear the dog whistle, you’re the dog.

    What’s the point of having soi-disant ‘libertarians’ in academe if they just recycle humbug traded in by partisan Democrats?

  4. Gravatar of John Hall John Hall
    23. May 2016 at 11:35

    Might be the scariest thing I’ve heard about Trump.

  5. Gravatar of Lawrence D’Anna Lawrence D'Anna
    23. May 2016 at 11:50

    It would be kind of weird if a professional political demagogue didn’t read Hitler wouldn’t it? Trump’s not crazy, his bullshit is expertly crafted. Like any good craftsman, he studies the masters of his craft.

  6. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:00

    It would be kind of weird if a professional political demagogue didn’t read Hitler wouldn’t it?

    He’s a real estate developer, not a ‘professional political demagogue’. Your informant is a woman who has not been married to him for 25 years.

  7. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    23. May 2016 at 12:03

    “Lots of Trump people (in my comment section) seem to believe that whites are a superior race.”

    Does any racial group of humans on planet Earth __not__ think that they are in some way more special or superior than others?

    Does the Black Lives Matter crowd not care about black people more than others? Do Japanese or Chinese or Jews or Hindus or Arabs not think they are more special than other groups?

    At some level everyone thinks they are more special than others, practice ancestor worship on their biological ancestors over complete strangers, nurtures their children more than children of strangers, and yes, thinks that their race is more special or superior to other races.

    You imply this is bad. It’s reality. Also, I know you think I’m an idiot nutjob extremist. I don’t support hurting anyone. Look at the Japanese: they are outrageously racist, way more than Trump or myself. They think the Japanese are the superior race. They defnitely don’t want massive immigration of non-Japanese. But they generally don’t want to hurt other people. I don’t think that is so bad.

    Sumner, you claimed that Trump will turn on all his supporters. Will he turn on his white nationalist supporters? Who should the rational white nationalist vote for?

    Sumner, you call people who are upset about Islamic terror attacks irrational and cite fatality statistics that are statistically low compared to other causes of death. Compared to Islamic terror, the KKK statistically kills almost no one. They are outrageously peaceful. Does this make KKKphobia even more irrational?

    You are calling Trump a demagogue in that he appeals to people’s emotions and prejudices. Aren’t you being emotional and prejudiced in dismissing my logical reasonable arguments?

    “Might be the scariest thing I’ve heard about Trump.”

    Does the leader of Japan who likes Japanese people similarly scare you? Does every leader on planet Earth that prefers their own people over complete foreigners also scare you?

  8. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. May 2016 at 12:04

    “you’ll see that Stormfront and lots of other racists think this detail is pretty significant.”

    -[citation needed]

    “So many people to hate.”

    -What has Trump said that can even be remotely construed as hate for any religious or ethnic group?

    “But it seems particularly strange in light of Trump’s bizarre refusal to denounce David Duke”

    -Which was, of course, completely fictional, him having disavowed David Duke a day before the supposed refusal.

    “all the racist dog whistles”

    What racist dog whistles? Ben Carson’s endorsement? Sure, Trump has retweeted White Nationalists, but that’s called politics. You give thumbs up to your supporters and don’t alienate your constituencies just because your opponents want you to.

    “If you don’t think Trump’s a racist, why in the hell do you like him so much?”

    -Trump isn’t a racist. He’s a nationalist -perhaps, even, a citizenist. Thus, while he has no racist views known to anyone

    * Unlike Cruz, he has the intellectual fortitude to withstand the nonsense put out by Black Lives Matter.

    * He has the most pro-American foreign policy of all the various candidates.

    * He has a strong anti-PC stance, permitting him to point out the obvious fact that when Mexico sends its people, it’s not sending its best, and that this problem should be countered by deporting all the illegal aliens who currently reside within this country.

    This is not White Nationalism. But neither is this the destructive Clinton/Rubio style invade the world/invite the world/in hock to the world thinking that has pervaded the Washington establishment for the past fifty plus years.

  9. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 12:06

    Neoreactionaries have always acknowledged that their ideas are just two web clicks away from Stormfront. Can’t be helped. Scott, it wouldn’t be hard to infer from your argument here that because the above linkage exists the US should have open borders, or at the least not explore any of the downsides of multiculturalism.

    I mean … just as a for instance … where do you stand on the research in The Bell Curve? Or on the low-level civil war that is now effectively underway in France (and, increasingly Belgium, and southern Sweden)?

    Should these topics be off limits? If so why?

    I just don’t understand your endgame with these neoreactionary hit pieces other than garden-variety virtue-signaling …

    And this from someone who views you as THE go-to guy on monetary policy!

  10. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. May 2016 at 12:08

    “Who should the rational white nationalist vote for?”

    -Excellent question.

    And Japan is much less apologetic for its WWII crimes than Germany is, BTW. That’s because the emperor was never overthrown there, so there’s some measure of continuity between the pre- and post- WWII regimes.

  11. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:18

    Neoreactionaries have always acknowledged that their ideas are just two web clicks away from Stormfront.

    No self-respecting throne-and-altar conservative has any use for those vulgarians. Go away.

  12. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:23

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/09/01/cruz-leads-a-gop-backlash-to-black-lives-matter-rhetoric/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/09/01/cruz-leads-a-gop-backlash-to-black-lives-matter-rhetoric/

    Unlike Cruz, he has the intellectual fortitude to withstand the nonsense put out by Black Lives Matter.

    Cruz doesn’t have any time for the Black-Lives-Matter humbug. You’ve confused him with the cop-haters at Mercatus. And there is no public figure today whose ‘intellecutal fortitude’ exceeds that of Cruz.

  13. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 12:23

    Er … Neoreactionary thought IS throne-and-alter conservatism … or at least that is one branch of it. Certainly the throne part.

  14. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:25

    “Lots of Trump people (in my comment section) seem to believe that whites are a superior race.”

    The implication of both bedrock policy in higher education and of the advocacy practiced by the open-borders-lobby is that the common-and-garden population of the United States needs to be displaced. Just how are we to interpret that?

  15. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:26

    Er … Neoreactionary thought IS throne-and-alter conservatism … or at least that is one branch of it. Certainly the throne part.

    Yes, and they have no use for Stormfront.

  16. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 12:31

    That was my point. What I was trying to say is that you can’t erase the fact that there is some Venn diagram intersection between Neoreaction and Stormfront. It’s just … there. Either a person can accept that or he can’t. Scott seems to be arguing that all of neoreaction should be thrown in the trash can because this overlap exists.

    Now … that position may have gotten some traction five years ago. But today it is intellectually indefensible. There is just too much data out there supporting neoreactionary arguments. Scott is trying to shame that data away, but it can’t be done. That’s why Trump won the Republican primary despite massive efforts to discredit him. People have done their homework.

  17. Gravatar of Capt. J Parker Capt. J Parker
    23. May 2016 at 12:34

    How is it possible for such a thing as a “racist dog whistle” to exist?
    Are racists actually clever enough to recognize that a statement is racist when a disinterested person might not interpret it as racist? I would think exactly the opposite would be true – one would need to bludgeon racists over the head with blatantly, undeniably racist statements for the racist morons to be sure the person making the statement is of a like mind as them. When someone claims that X is a racist dog whistle then one of two things is true. Either X is in fact racist or X is not racist but those claiming it is a “racist dog whistle” would like to discredit X on emotional rather than rational grounds.
    To illustrate, Here’s WSJs Taranto quoting Jeet Heer of the New Republic reminding us of HRC statements in the 2008 primary season: “On May 8, she argued that “I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on,” and cited an article whose findings she summarized thus: “Senator Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.” The contrast between Obama’s base of black voters with the “hard-working” white Americans supporting Clinton, made on the eve of a primary in West Virginia, carried clear racial overtones. . . .(i.e. Racist Dog Whistle CJP) From WSJ piece:http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-sanders-panic-1463763512
    So, do racists dog whistles exist? Is Hillary clever enough to use them? I doubt Trump is clever enough to even think of disguising anything he says.

  18. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:37

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/05/23/pomona-moves-make-diversity-commitment-tenure-requirement

    Pomona College makes the case that we all overspend on liberal education.

  19. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:38

    What I was trying to say is that you can’t erase the fact that there is some Venn diagram intersection between Neoreaction and Stormfront. It’s just … there.

    It’s not there and you’re a malicious fraud.

  20. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 12:41

    Dude … you simply are not thinking about this hard enough. My line about neoreaction always being two clicks from Stormfront comes from Nick Land — one of the founders of the neoreactionary school (and if I’m not mistaken the coiner of the term). Seems to me you, too, are just virtue-signaling (or at least trying to anti-vice-signal, if there is such a thing).

  21. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. May 2016 at 12:47

    Am I banned?

  22. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. May 2016 at 12:47

    @Art

    Yup. See Moldbug’s Why I am not a White Nationalist.
    But those vulgarians are how throne-and-altar conservative ideas percolate down into the Twittersphere.

  23. Gravatar of Oderus Urungus Oderus Urungus
    23. May 2016 at 12:49

    Art Deco is most likely Hasbara.

  24. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:52

    Dude … you simply are not thinking about this hard enough.

    You’re operating under the illusion that the static between your ears is ‘thinking’.

  25. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:54

    Nick Land — one of the founders of the neoreactionary school

    If throne-and-altar conservatism can be said to have a ‘founder’, it is not anyone alive today. Quit pretending some collection of internet babblers is of abiding interest.

  26. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 12:56

    See Moldbug’s

    I don’t give a rip about Moldbug; he’s a computer programmer with an inflated sense of self.

  27. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 12:59

    E. Harding … I understand and appreciate Moldbug’s argument against white nationalism (which is, at root, a form of socialism). It’s basically sound. I am simply making the case that Neoreaction and Stormfront touch on some similar issues, such as taking a critical view on immigration, and being open to thinking about inherent differences between races. Moldbug obviously would have no problem with that.

    I don’t know why this is freaking you guys out so much. Are you both pro-open borders? What am I missing here?

  28. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 13:01

    Art Deco: If you haven’t read Moldbug you’re really not even trying. You can’t talk about Neoreaction with any effectiveness without grappling with his ideas.

  29. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 13:03

    Moldbug is not important. Chesterbelloc is important. Montesquieu is important. Burke is important. Thomas Aquinas is super-important. Moldbug is a computer programmer striking attitudes.

  30. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 13:09

    I see your point about original sources … but I think you sell Moldbug short. He advanced the ball at a meta level — He correctly analyzed the dynamic by which we get the sort of holiness spirals we’re seeing today. Without Moldbug it would be much harder to analyze, for instance, Scott’s insistence on constantly attacking neoreaction.

  31. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    23. May 2016 at 13:18

    Lawrence, You said:

    “It would be kind of weird if a professional political demagogue didn’t read Hitler wouldn’t it?”

    Exactly my point. Bingo!

    Massimo, You said:

    “Sumner, you claimed that Trump will turn on all his supporters. Will he turn on his white nationalist supporters?”

    Yes.

    On the issue of the KKK, if any politician ran for president claiming the KKK is one of America’s biggest problems in 2016, I’d think they were nuts.

    Kgaard, I find it amusing that people think I’m doing these hit jobs to boost my reputation. I assure that my reputation is plunging because of these stupid political posts. People who I respect have told me that, and I agree.

    A actually think that nationalists are the biggest threat in the world right now, whether they are in America, Europe, Russia, Turkey, India, China, or wherever.

    If Trump had simply said he wanted less immigration, or more emphasis on high skilled immigration, I would not have gone after him.

    It’s the nationalism I detest.

    When I was a student, it was a given that nationalism was evil, and that a 1984-style surveillance state was evil. Now I see lots of people in both parties endorsing one or both of these ideas. When did they stop being evil? I never got the message.

    Are we to now believe that Berlusconi was a good leader for Italy? Is that your claim? Is Le Pen the right leader for France? How about Orban? Putin? Abe? Xi? Modi?

    I do think there are cultural differences between various groups, but I don’t think that makes one group better than another.

    Captain, I will admit that “dog whistle” was not the right metaphor here, as Trump’s comments are usually pretty blatant. My mistake, as Art pointed out. Maybe when he got cute on the David Duke question you could say a dog whistle was involved, but not the ban on Muslims.

    Harding, You said:

    “Am I banned?”

    Apparently not.

  32. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 13:35

    “A actually think that nationalists are the biggest threat in the world right now, whether they are in America, Europe, Russia, Turkey, India, China, or wherever.”

    Scott that’s an incredible statement! The implication is that the desire to be around people who share your religion, language and culture is evil. To take that view is to argue that shared religion, language and culture have no role to play in human happiness. I live in a community that is 80% immigrant. All interactions are bare bones. Humor is impossible. There is no crime, but there is no joy. Is this the ideal? Granted I am just one data point, but still.

    There is a strong argument that the reason Europe experienced basically 45 years of unbroken peace after WWII was precisely because of the massive migrations after the war, which put people into countries with their kinsmen.

    Going a bit further, if one wanted one could attack your position as anti-semitic, since it is clearly anti-Israeli. The Jewish state would cease to exist in 48 hours if preferential treatment of Jews were eliminated. Not saying I personally would use that rhetorical tack with you, but I’ve pulled it out before just to flummox people.

  33. Gravatar of Kgaard Kgaard
    23. May 2016 at 13:39

    On leaders:

    Abe: Very good.
    Orban: Pretty good.
    Marine Le Pen: Necessary, but her economics are flawed. (I think I agree with her that France should leave the euro.)
    Modi: Jury is out.
    Berlusconi: Don’t even see how he fits in the sample, really.
    Xi: No strong view.

    What would be your view on the UK leaders who deliberately opened the flood gates of Third World immigration with the CONSCIOUS INTENT of changing the demographic to help Labour? They did it on purpose. Was that not evil?

  34. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    23. May 2016 at 13:56

    Being HTed by Scott Sumner is not a bad birthday present.

    Regarding Trump I will note this. Literally every single dictator you can imagine, he has praised. He admires Putin, he admires Kim Jon-un, etc.

    He even praised the Chinese for the Tinanmen Square massacre. Literally I’ve never heard anyone but him praise that.

    This is the one thing the man is consistent about. If it walks like a duck, maybe the most obvious explanation is the right one.

  35. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    23. May 2016 at 14:04

    “It’s the nationalism I detest.”

    I share that view.

    It’s fun watching you throw rocks at the hornet’s nest.

  36. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 14:10

    “It’s the nationalism I detest.”

    I share that view.

    Perhaps the two of you could self-deport to some non-nation.

  37. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    23. May 2016 at 14:13

    When I was a student, it was a given that nationalism was evil,

    We kinda got the impression you were badly educated.

    What you’re set in society did was to replace patriotism and the concentric loyalties which normal people have with loyalty to the international class of fancy people. Not attractive.

  38. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    23. May 2016 at 14:14

    “There is no crime, but there is no joy.”

    Why not move? I also live in an immigrant saturated part of the US: but it’s hard to say who the real immigrants are. The progression from Chumash to Spanish to Mexican to Anglo domination is pretty clear, and it all took place in a little over 200 years. Looks like it might be swinging back a bit to Mexican at this point. Racial anxiety fades. Most people I know got over it in their late teens.

    I don’t think we should cater to emotionalism by creating “safe spaces” for either the right or left.

  39. Gravatar of Lorenzo from Oz Lorenzo from Oz
    23. May 2016 at 14:17

    As long as the report of the speeches is not gist to the “The Donald is a Fascist!” nonsense. Fascism is an ideology, The Donald doesn’t have one. The dynamics of demagoguery may somewhat overlap with (well, almost any extreme movement that gets some popularity) but it also has very specific dynamics and since The Donald is pure demagoguery, that’s what one has to focus on.

    “Hitler was a much better public speaker than Trump. He had a theatrical style whereas Trump speaks more extemporaneously, like a guy at a bar.”
    Isn’t that how you do demagoguery in the age of TV and YouTube?

  40. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    23. May 2016 at 14:22

    “Perhaps the two of you could self-deport to some non-nation.”

    In the past it was the frustrated theists who self deported to the new world. Mars is wide open territory for like minded individuals these days. I’d even pack you a lunch and give you a ride to the launch pad.

  41. Gravatar of Chuck Chuck
    23. May 2016 at 14:42

    “Isn’t that how you do demagoguery in the age of TV and YouTube?”

    Probably. Just another facet of our degraded standards. Our demagogues aren’t as “good” anymore.

    I’m not a Nazi and don’t speak German, but you have to admit Hitler was an electric public speaker. It must have been absolutely thrilling/terrifying to see him “perform” live.

  42. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. May 2016 at 14:53

    “Literally I’ve never heard anyone but him praise that.”

    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/justinchina1.html

  43. Gravatar of Oderus Urungus Oderus Urungus
    23. May 2016 at 15:16

    Art sure likes him some serious Semitic sausage.

    @mike sax

    Don’t worry, two of Trump’s kids are married to Jews, and he’s taking Adelson’s money. The Tribe has this one covered.

  44. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    23. May 2016 at 15:31

    “When I was a student, it was a given that nationalism was evil”

    American Exceptionalism? Patriotism? A love of language and heritage?

    Are people supposed to completely empty themselves of everything as to not offend or exclude others? This seems absurd.

    Is Japan evil? Israel? China? Most states have nationalist tendencies. The state itself is a nationalist construct. Why the focus on all whites and only whites? If defending ethnic identity is such an evil, why not pressure the rest of the world?

    I don’t know Shinzō Abe, but isn’t he more “evil” than Trump in your world view? He’s been more aggressive about stopping Muslim immigration than Trump even hints at.

    Sumner responds to some easier points and has quips but passes on the better points. And if I’m just too lowbrow to respond to beyond quips, how about Finkielkraut who makes the same points with more eloquence and status.

    Margaret Thatcher said, “Mexicans will be the ruin of America.” Was that evil?

    Mahatma Gandhi, spent much of his life helping Hindu Indians segregate from blacks. He was ultra racist. Was that evil? Same with Abraham Lincoln: ultra racist. Pretty much everyone.

    “I do think there are cultural differences between various groups, but I don’t think that makes one group better than another.”

    Is no demographic group better than another in terms of the 100 meter dash? You can measure difference, how could you say otherwise?

  45. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    23. May 2016 at 16:20

    Trump=Reagan.

    Anyway in America, you have cupcake politics.

    The leader of the largest nation in China, where extraorinarily aggressive web censorship is the rule, recently said the role of the media is to serve the dominant (and only) political party. Thousands of public officials have been thrown in jail of late in this nation, probably due to corruption but no one is sure. Dissidents are always thrown in jail.

    The latest idea is that Sino tourists to Japan should not buy the superior consumer products made there.

    Other Asian nations have uniformed leaders, thanks to coups.

    Trump? He plays pattycake with Hillary. He read a book once? One cut above George Bush jr.

  46. Gravatar of Oderus Urungus Oderus Urungus
    23. May 2016 at 18:03

    BTW, I would LOVE to be there when Sumner grabs a Trump supporter by the shoulders and yells “racist” in their face. Tough guy bloggers, what a riot.

  47. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    23. May 2016 at 18:07

    “I would LOVE to be there when Sumner grabs a Trump supporter by the shoulders and yells “racist” in their face.”

    Bullying and violent intimidation? Typical Trump protester.

  48. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    23. May 2016 at 19:33

    “I almost want to grab them by the shoulders and scream, “If you don’t think Trump’s a racist, why in the hell do you like him so much?”

    You mean you almost want to physically aggress against people?

    I guess Trump is good at one thing…he is encouraging thugs to show their true colors for all to see.

  49. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    23. May 2016 at 20:20

    Oderus and Massimo, I may not be a “tough guy” but I’d much rather be non-tough than incapable of understanding when someone is obviously speaking figuratively.

    I do get great amusement out of observing the sort of people who crawl out of the sewer every time Trump’s name in mentioned in a post.

    Brendan asked me recently why reading all these comments hadn’t changed my view of Trump. They have changed my view—I’m even more convinced he’s everything I assumed. With supporters like you two, I don’t have to worry about the possibility that I am somehow missing something important.

    Mike, You said:

    “He even praised the Chinese for the Tinanmen Square massacre.”

    What massacre? There was no massacre. Trump says the Chinese government simply put down a “riot”. When it comes to politics the guy is dumb as a doorknob—why do people have so much trouble accepting that?

    Just to be clear, I don’t think he was lying to appease the evil Chinese government, I believe he really thinks it was a riot put down by the Chinese government. He’s that dumb.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/12/world/asia/donald-trump-describes-tiananmen-protests-as-riot.html?_r=0

    Kgaard, You said:

    “The implication is that the desire to be around people who share your religion, language and culture is evil.”

    So when Trump says the Chinese are “raping” the US, that’s just his way of saying he likes to spend Thanksgiving with his friends and family?

    Ditto for when he refuses to condemn David Duke? How about when he refuses to condemn the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII (German Americans with names like Drumpf were not interned.)

    I’ve never called anyone racist for wanting to limit immigration in sensible ways. Religion is not a sensible criterion.

    You said:

    “The Jewish state would cease to exist in 48 hours if preferential treatment of Jews were eliminated.”

    Nice try, but that’s not what would happen. They’d pull back to borders where they are a huge majority (in other words leave Gaza and the West Bank, or at least most of the West Bank.)

  50. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    23. May 2016 at 20:53

    Kgaard,

    ““… nationalists are the biggest threat in the world right now, whether they are in America, Europe, Russia, Turkey, India, China, or wherever.”

    Scott that’s an incredible statement! The implication is that the desire to be around people who share your religion, language and culture is evil. ”

    I agree with Scott, emphatically, and I’d like to pile up on it. Nationalism isn’t just the desire to be around people perceived as similar. It’s assuming that people within a container (borders) are broadly of one stock to begin with, ethnically, culturally, in language and religion, or ought to be. It’s assuming that the distribution of preferences or origins of this kind in a country is unimodal, and that these unimodal preferences or origins are also magically correlated to each other. In other words, it’s assuming that that there are “kinds of people” that really are more or less the same. It’s assuming that whoever does not share these clearly defined majority qualities ought to change or has no place in such a society. Broadly, it is assuming that one pre-defined standard ought to be hoisted and forced on everyone else, to make everyone the same. In other words, nationalism is pretty much the exact opposite of classical liberalism, or libertarianism.

    The origins of modern nationalism are of course in the French revolution. Note the importance of equality in that context – and the revolution did not just mean equality under the law. It forced everyone within the French borders to speak French for example. Believe it or not, that was not the case before the revolution. It forced conscription upon the people. It forced the break up of regions into equal departements. It even had ideas of a standardized “French national costume” that everyone ought to wear. Bottom line, the origin of nationalism lies in making everyone the same. Ity’s the negation of human diversity, bio- or otherwise. And this is how nationalism and socialism have some strange common roots. BTW much of the above can be found in Tocqueville, no wonder given the liberally inclined writer that he was.

  51. Gravatar of Thiago Ribeiro Thiago Ribeiro
    23. May 2016 at 21:04

    “I almost want to grab them by the shoulders and scream, ‘If you don’t think Trump’s a racist, why in the hell do you like him so much?'”
    Because he will make America great again.

  52. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    23. May 2016 at 21:06

    One more thing. Lincoln has been called the first American Nationalist. A lot of people in America ca. 1787 were not convinced of the need for a strong Federal government, hence the “Federalist papers” campaign. And you may argue, many today still aren’t. Yet the same people who wax lyrical about the confederacy and its values, also wax lyrical about nationalism, which was really the main opponent of the confederacy. Which tells you now that it’s not about opposition to nationalism or federal government, but really about racism pure and simple and the desire to legitimize it.

  53. Gravatar of Mark Mark
    23. May 2016 at 21:39

    In terms of talent for strategy and intellectual consistency, comparing Trump to the Nazis does a disservice to the Nazis. Hitler may have been a demagogue, but it is clear what he was after fairly early on, and he used deception as a means to realizing it. I still maintain that Trump more or less just wings it and doesn’t actually have a coherent ideology; at best he has a couple common broad themes mixed in with a bunch of other stuff.

    mbka, I think you’re trying to take a bunch of very different and often opposing phenomena and pushing them into the category of nationalism. In one sense Islamism and communist internationalism are the opposite of nationalism. And if imposing one’s cultural norms on others is nationalism, anyone who has tried to end genital mutilation in Africa can be called a nationalist.

    One’s nation or ethnicity is just one standard among many. The French Revolution (a period, I should not, I consider to be terrible and disgustingly over-celebrated) didn’t occur in a vacuum. It replaced dynasty and church (or to some extent provincial regionalism) with the nation as the object of adulation.

    In any case, ironically, the supposed resurgence of nationalism in the west (I’m not convinced it’s an enduring trend rather than a passing fad) is partly due to the collapse of nationalism in the Islamic world and the rise of political Islam (an internationalist worldview) and the concomitant extremism against which nationalism is in part a reaction. Also, it should be expected that the decline in the importance of national borders and increased migration (a very unnationalist development) will lead to heightened cultural anxiety, crisis of identity, and resentment. That, I think, is what might be occurring today.

  54. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. May 2016 at 21:55

    “nationalism, which was really the main opponent of the confederacy.”

    -National rights within the world is fully consistent with states’ rights within a nation. And the Confederacy was founded as a new nation, anyway, and often contravened the rights of its constituent states.

    “but really about racism pure and simple and the desire to legitimize it”

    -Not anymore. Racism is simple to understand and simple to believe in, but it’s been so suppressed over the past half-century that it’s not anywhere near as huge a motivator as it used to be.

    And I totally agree with Mark in his above comment.

    “So when Trump says the Chinese are “raping” the US, that’s just his way of saying he likes to spend Thanksgiving with his friends and family?”

    -Indirectly, yes. As you know, Scott, the Chinese have taken American manufacturing jobs, which hurts (some) American families.

    “Ditto for when he refuses to condemn David Duke?”

    -ENOUGH. POINTS. REFUTED. A. THOUSAND. TIMES! Scott, you know you’re lying.

    “How about when he refuses to condemn the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII”

    -The U.S. was at war, Scott. The war with the most combat deaths in American history. Neutralizing potential fifth columnists was important.

    “(German Americans with names like Drumpf were not interned.)”

    -sHOWS HOW MUCH YOU KNOW:

    http://takimag.com/article/the_nazi_kid_from_brooklyn_david_cole/

    “Religion is not a sensible criterion.”

    -Why not? Lebanese Christians assimilate in American culture easily. Not so with Lebanese Muslims.

    “in other words leave Gaza”

    -They’ve done that for a decade.

  55. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. May 2016 at 21:56

    Weird Sumner accepts the reality of cultural differences, but does not believe religion is an important cultural difference. That’s one of the biggest ones!

  56. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    23. May 2016 at 23:20

    Wasn’t Ronald Reagan a nationalist? That’s how I remember his speeches and he was big on the military, especially the navy (offensice weapons systems). Reagan was the most aggressive trade protectionist in the post-war era by far, says Cato Institute—the Reaganauts bragged about their protectionism, back then.

    Trumps needs the Reagan hagiographers to join his campaign staff.

    And the Plaza Accords? Reagan said other nations’ currencies were too cheap.

    Was Reagan Trumpian or is Trump a Reaganaut?

  57. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    23. May 2016 at 23:30

    “In this land of dreams fulfilled where greater dreams may be imagined, nothing is impossible, no victory is beyond our reach; no glory will ever be too great.. . . The world’s hopes rest with America’s future.. . . Our work will pale before the greatness of America’s champions in the 21st century….”

    Well, you know it was not Trump that spoke those lines because they are too glorific even for the Donald.

    Yes, that was Ronald Reagan talking.

  58. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    24. May 2016 at 00:05

    “I do get great amusement out of observing the sort of people who crawl out of the sewer every time Trump’s name in mentioned in a post.”

    Yes, thugs and bullies do “enjoy” dehumanizing people as if they were veritable rats and animals crawling in the sewer.

    Hitler dehumanized people too. He called people he didn’t like worms, and roaches.

    He spoke “figuratively” before he acquired power.

  59. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    24. May 2016 at 00:16

    “Brendan asked me recently why reading all these comments hadn’t changed my view of Trump. They have changed my view—I’m even more convinced he’s everything I assumed. With supporters like you two, I don’t have to worry about the possibility that I am somehow missing something important.”

    A rational person would not take into account what random internet commenters say about Trump when making conclusions about Trump. That person would consider what Trumps says and does.

    The fact you are more “convinced” about your opinions of Trump solely on the basis of what the posters here say, is proof that you are only using those posters’ comments as an excuse to pretend that your assumptions are more correct than they are. While trying to insult those posters, you are only revealing more and more of the kind of person you are, which by the way I learned many years ago (and not because of what anyone else said).

    The posters here are not verifying or validating your beliefs of Trump. Your assumptions and beliefs are just so weak that you are trying to make their opinions more relevant than they really are. You might as well use the rising and setting Sun to pretend you are even more convinced.

    I’ve read Mao’s “Little Red Book” to Communism. According to your anti-intellectual political agitprop, that makes me pro-communist. I’ve also read Rothbard’s “For a New Liberty.” I guess that makes me anti-communist. So I will leave it to you to pick and choose which book to focus on should you ever want to engage in more self-righteousness.

    Next thing we’ll see on this blog is a call to burn books.

  60. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    24. May 2016 at 02:16

    @sumner

    “With supporters like you two, I don’t have to worry about the possibility that I am somehow missing something important.”

    You are not debating or engaing my arguments, you are just insulting them. I guess that solidifies my perpsective as well, that you don’t have logical counterarguments, and your views are as absurd as I suspected.

    The Trump comments on the Tiananmen Square incident do sound ignorant, dumb, and horrific. I don’t think all Trump comments are dumb like this.

    @mbka
    “Yet the same people who wax lyrical about the confederacy and its values, also wax lyrical about nationalism, which was really the main opponent of the confederacy. Which tells you now that it’s not about opposition to nationalism or federal government, but really about racism pure and simple and the desire to legitimize it.”

    I’ve been super blunt in posting here. I don’t think you or Sumner would accuse me of hiding my true intentions and feelings. If the Confederacy was simply about racism, I’d admit it. The Confederacy sympathy is about:

    – Devolution of power. Rights of secession. The Confederacy is the dominant global story of these issues regardless of how you feel about the rest of the scenario.

    – This is such an outrageous example of political re-interpretation of history. The idea that Northern whites fought for black civil rights is completely absurd. Most Northern whites who opposed slavery wanted blacks excluded from their states and cities and preferably sent back to Africa. Lincoln had horrible quotes about black people. Lincoln was quite eager to allow slavery to continue. Lincoln was adamant against secession which is not a noble reason to wage war. Many southerners, beyond issues of race and slavery, really did want their own government that represented their interests and would protect them from Northern whites.

  61. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    24. May 2016 at 02:26

    @Benjamin Cole

    Wasn’t Ronald Reagan a nationalist? Was Reagan Trumpian or is Trump a Reaganaut?

    Very good post again. Today most influential people in the media and so-called intellectuals would describe Reagan as a nationalist, racist, fascist, paleo-conservative hard-liner. Totally unqualified to be President – and so on. They did the same with W. Bush. They did the same with Goldwater. They would have done the same with Cruz. This whole repetitive act is not so much about Reagan, Bush, Cruz or Trump. It’s always the recent GOP candidate that – according to the “experts” – would be the worst President there ever was and ever will be. This narrative might be especially successful this time, because this time even people like ssumner fell for it easily.

    @Mark

    comparing Trump to the Nazis does a disservice to the Nazis.

    You Trump haters really seem to love boundless exaggerations but even for you that’s a new low.

  62. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    24. May 2016 at 04:16

    Massimo,

    why you’re getting off a tangent re: civil rights is beyond me. My main point was precisely what you also say, that Lincoln was prima facie more about nationalism (preventing the breakup of the Union) than about slavery. But now when people like you are making U.S.-nationalist points that they conflate with confederate sympathies, I must conclude that these sympathies are not really for the U.S.-nationalist part (that was anti confederacy) but for the less savory, and less freedom loving side of the confederacy, namely slavery and in today’s context, racism. And really, states’ rights in the U.S. get invoked mainly when states want to pass some parochial, bigoted laws. Hardly any state complains about getting federal money for highways or police work, or about federal defense.

    Mark,

    agree with many points – Islam is of course a universalist religion, just like Christianity. It allows any human to join. It doesn’t concern itself with nations or ethnicities. And socialism / communism is internationalist while national socialism has elements of socialism. It just wants to keep all the benefits for its own workers. As for nationalism, many facets exist. My point was to show the origins of it, in a form of egalitarianism within-country. But nationalism is not necessarily about imposing one’s cultural standards on other cultures. That would be cultural imperialism! And yes, anti FGM campaigners have been accused of that. Different can of worms. Cultural imperialism certainly exists, yet I also believe that there are universal standards of decency that all people should adhere to. The thing is, you have to convince them. Not force it upon them. Ideas that work usually get voted for by people “with their feet”. Nationalism however is different, it is about imposing one group’s idea of a country on all people inside it, and to believe that this country’s people are somewhat homogeneous and fundamentally different from other people outside it (“other nations”) that are also perceived as stereotypically homogeneous (“the Muslims”, “the French”, etc). So nationalism has only two possible futures: to break up larger nations into smaller and smaller ones, to remain with the dictum of homogeneity, or to homogenize people within a larger, previously diverse country. Needless to say both are highly problematic. Say, a Marine Le Pen would not just prevent further immigration. She would, and already does, prescribe upon others what she thinks behaving like a “real” French person should be like. The victims of nationalism aren’t just the people outside that nation. The first victims of nationalism are the “misfits” as declared by the opinion-makers _within_ that nation.

  63. Gravatar of Oderus Urungus Oderus Urungus
    24. May 2016 at 04:35

    Yes Scott, we all know you’d never DARE leave the shelter of your ivory tower to interact either with the whites whose concerns you castigate and denigrate, OR the migrants you pretend are natural libertarians and allies. It’s always fun to mock your self-righteousness, though.

  64. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 05:21

    Other Asian nations have uniformed leaders, thanks to coups.

    I think only Thailand and Burma at this time. Thailand has had difficulties the last 10 years but has generally had parliamentary administrations since 1979.

  65. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 05:27

    The idea that Northern whites fought for black civil rights is completely absurd. Most Northern whites who opposed slavery wanted blacks excluded from their states and cities and preferably sent back to Africa. Lincoln had horrible quotes about black people.

    Some northern states prohibited the in-migration of free negroes. Most did not. I don’t think the American Colonization Society ever represented more than a sliver of the public (though Lincoln was a sympathizer). Lincoln was a Free Soiler who wanted slavery confined to where it was already practiced and abhorred the Dred Scott decision.

  66. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 05:30

    Whetever Union soldiers valued in 1862, there’s no getting around what happened six years later. Congress was quite aggressive the first dozen years after the war in instituting civil rights for freed slaves (and by that I mean freedom to travel, to contract, and to participate in public life, not how the term has been used in the last 50-odd years).

  67. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 05:34

    So nationalism has only two possible futures: to break up larger nations into smaller and smaller ones, to remain with the dictum of homogeneity, or to homogenize people within a larger, previously diverse country. Needless to say both are highly problematic.

    No, the latter is problematic only because political elites like to hold onto their toys. Promoting, troublesome politico-geographic fragmentation has not been a vice of nationalists, but of the antique nobility of Germany and France. Not exactly a topical concern.

  68. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 05:38

    Wasn’t Ronald Reagan a nationalist?

    The late John Roche, parsing Reagan’s public remarks on foreign relations, offered that his visceral sympathies were aligned with the ‘conservative nationalists’ of the inter-war period, not the internationalism of Democrats from Roosevelt to Henry Jackson, even though Reagan’s policies were internationalist in character. Ditto Barry Goldwater, who would have liked to conquer Cuba but was dubious about entanglements outside the western hemisphere.

  69. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 05:43

    The progression from Chumash to Spanish to Mexican to Anglo domination is pretty clear,

    There was never any Spanish or Mexican ‘domination’ of California. The population of peninsulares, criollos, mestizos and mission Indians in 1840 barely made it into five digits. As for the continent in general, domination by particular Indian tribes was commonly evanescent and local. The Iriquois might be an exception.

  70. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    24. May 2016 at 07:07

    “There was never any Spanish or Mexican ‘domination’ of California.”

    I’m talking about my community: Santa Barbara. Sure, there were only a few padres and relatively small contingent of soldiers, but they ran the show. The big land owners (rancho owners) and the important people in town all had Spanish or Mexican ancestry. This continued past the Mexican period when the Anglos took over that state government. The newcomers often married into the leading Spanish/Mexican landowning families, and converted to Catholicism. Read Dana. The names of the important families Dana mentions are now our major street names: Carrillo, Castillo, Cabrillo, De La Guerra. Read some history of the Mission system. Santa Barbara was one of the few that had a presidio in addition to a mission. This is something the community has tipped it’s hat to for about a century now: “Old Spanish Days” is the biggest festival here, with many old time families participating in the week long celebrations. I’ve personally met many descendants from families that go back 4, 5, 6 or more generations.

  71. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    24. May 2016 at 07:15

    Scott, here’s a true believer: Christian TV CEO Mark Burns: he says Trump is an authentic Christian because he’s always pointing upwards. How can you argue with rock solid logic like that?
    http://www.mediaite.com/election-2016/pro-trump-evangelical-he-must-be-a-christian-because-he-points-at-the-sky-a-lot/
    He continues:

    “Even with Mr. Trump’s billions of dollars, he too still submits himself to God,” he continued. “We should all chip in to help him out. You know, even a billionaire needs some cash flow.”

    Erick Erickson takes his so-called “Christian” brethren to task for what he views as their shameful behavior toward Trump:
    http://theresurgent.com/the-evangelical-cheap-dates-prepare-for-their-droit-du-seigneur/

    “In feudal times, the lords of a land had the right to have sex with women subordinate to them before the women then consummated their marriage to the man they actually married. Major evangelical leaders are right now shaving their legs and waxing their nethers getting ready to allow Donald Trump the droit du seigneur before they fully commit to Jesus.”

    Now personally I view Trump’s obvious lack of religiosity as one of the only good things about him.

  72. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 07:52

    I think droit de seigneur was a bit of fiction incorporated into Braveheart.

    There’s nothing ‘shameful’ about the behavior of Christians regarding Trump. Christian voters have to choose between available alternatives like anyone else. (By the way, using the scare quotes around the word is asinine).

  73. Gravatar of myb6 myb6
    24. May 2016 at 09:45

    Don’t tar people just because an unsavory character happens to agree with them on a policy issue. This is really beneath you, Scott, and your continued efforts on this front have greatly diminished my opinion of your character.

  74. Gravatar of J Mann J Mann
    24. May 2016 at 10:16

    I’m not sure Trump is subtle enough for dog whistles, but I don’t pay a lot of attention to him, so I can’t rule it out. And I definitely agree that he doesn’t reject and presumably welcomes the support of racists, and that he’s not smart enough to posture as an anti-immigration populist without also saying a bunch of stuff that’s racist, so I guess it’s the same thing.

    Apropos of nothing, I’ve always thought Bill Clinton had the clearest examples of dog whistles, but it may be in part due to my biases. (I did vote for the guy, but came to regret it.) (1) The term “Sister Soulja Moment” was coined for his maneuver in publicly rebuking a rapper specifically to differentiate himself from Jesse Jackson and signal that he wasn’t beholden to African-American interest groups; (2) IIRC, according to DeParle’s “American Dream,” when Clinton ran on “ending welfare as we know it,” the campaign had no agreement what that might mean – they just knew that the phrase tested really well among white working men.

  75. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 10:20

    have greatly diminished my opinion of your character.

    1. Did you notice ten years ago during the fiasco at Duke University that the one person held accountable was the public prosecutor? None of the faculty members who beclowned themselves or engaged in behavior exposing Duke to civil liability suffered professionally at all, and some received important professional accolades.

    2. There have been quite a mess of controversies over star chambers in academic institutions. Did you ever notice that faculty and administrators seem to come up with astonishingly cack-handed procedures in spite of the fact that the institutions have legal counsel on retainer and sometimes on staff?

    3. Do you ever read the comment boxes at Inside Higher Education when faculty speak for themselves or review controversies of the sort which have erupted at Marquette over Prof. John McAdams (and see what other faculty have to say)?

  76. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 10:24

    I’m not sure Trump is subtle enough for dog whistles,

    He refuses to apologize when reporters et al get their panties in a wad about something he’s said. For the purveyors of the call-out culture, that response reduces their social unassailability and capacity to command obedience. That bothers them greatly. It also motivates those of us who loathe the call out culture.

  77. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    24. May 2016 at 13:00

    @mbka

    “My main point was precisely what you also say, that Lincoln was prima facie more about nationalism (preventing the breakup of the Union) than about slavery. But now when people like you are making U.S.-nationalist points that they conflate with confederate sympathies”

    The morally bad form of nationalism is conquest: “My [nation/tribe/ethno-religious] group will attack and conquer others”.

    This is the Nazi ideology, Islamic conquest, and even Abraham Lincoln’s conquest of the southern states.

    The morally reasonable form of nationalism is what modern Japan does. They care about themselves more than others, they reserve their land for their own ethnic group, but they don’t attack or directly hurt others.

  78. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    24. May 2016 at 13:31

    This is the Nazi ideology, Islamic conquest, and even Abraham Lincoln’s conquest of the southern states.

    The Southern states were rather thickly populated with slaves, whose interests were not served by secession.

  79. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    24. May 2016 at 17:59

    Massimo,

    as I pointed out, and Deco makes parallel points as well: Nationalism’s first moral sin isn’t even conquest, it’s “my tribe’s manners should be standard for all within these borders”. And just for the record, “islamic conquest” isn’t a nationalism and doesn’t work like nationalism, if it exists at all.

  80. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    24. May 2016 at 20:49

    myb6, I think you missed the point. If I tar Trump, it’s because he’s clearly appealing to the racist vote. It’s naive to think he doesn’t know what he’s doing, when he mocks other races.

  81. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    25. May 2016 at 00:30

    “Just to be clear, I don’t think he was lying to appease the evil Chinese government, I believe he really thinks it was a riot put down by the Chinese government. He’s that dumb.”

    Scott, my guess is in his mind there’s no difference between a riot and a protest

  82. Gravatar of myb6 myb6
    25. May 2016 at 04:29

    Scott, you’re claiming that Trump is intentionally targeting the Neo-Nazi/KKK vote? How many of them do you think there are? Versus how many people will never vote for Trump purely because Neo-Nazis/Klansmen have voiced their Trump support?

    I don’t believe you actually believe that. Trump is indeed intentionally appealing to a broad swath of the country with concerns about Muslim violence and the scale/costs of the Hispanic migration. Even if you believe those concerns are incorrect or overblown, you’re being remarkably uncharitable to group those so concerned with Neo-Nazis/Klansmen.

  83. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    25. May 2016 at 05:53

    myb6, I think he’s targeting the racist vote, and there are a lot of them in the US. Read my recent comment sections if you don’t believe me.

    So when Trump makes fun of the way Asians talk, in his speeches, what high minded purpose is that racist mockery serving? Pointing out the problem of job loss to Indian call centers? Get serious.

  84. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    25. May 2016 at 08:36

    @Art Deco,

    “The Southern states were rather thickly populated with slaves, whose interests were not served by secession.”

    Agreed. That’s obvious. The world is full of conflicting interests. Reasonable compromise should be the goal.

    Nor was the interest of black slaves served by the main political compromise suggested by Lincoln, which was indefinite slavery in exchange for complete forfeiture or Confederate sovereignty and rights of secession.

    The exact opposite compromise of what Lincoln advanced seems like the best way to have avoided the Civil War. Give the Confederacy complete sovereignty and independence in exchange for complete abolition of slavery.

  85. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    25. May 2016 at 08:43

    @sumner,

    “myb6, I think he’s targeting the racist vote, and there are a lot of them in the US. Read my recent comment sections if you don’t believe me.”

    Would you say the Black Lives Matters crowd isn’t racist? Obama isn’t racist? Japan isn’t racist? China isn’t racist? The Arab nations aren’t racist? Mexican immigration rights groups aren’t racist? Only the Trump crowd is racist? This isn’t some selective perception on your part at all?

    To paraphrase what you said earlier, “Obama doesn’t lie, Clinton doesn’t lie, only Donald Trump lies.”

    Now, I presume even this comment I’m writing is so far outside your personal Overton window of tolerance that you perceive as beyond ridiculous and outrageous and not worthy of serious comment.

  86. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    25. May 2016 at 08:44

    “So when Trump makes fun of the way Asians talk, in his speeches, what high minded purpose is that racist mockery serving?”

    -Ross Perot said virtually the same things. Trump is bringing up the issues of 1992 all over again.

  87. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    25. May 2016 at 09:28

    Harding, Just typical of your answers. Never a straight answer, always like a 5 year old child saying “But Johnny threw rocks too”

  88. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    25. May 2016 at 10:24

    @mbka,

    “Nationalism’s first moral sin isn’t even conquest, it’s ‘my tribe’s manners should be standard for all within these borders'”

    Tribal manners forced on everyone within its borders are called laws.

    For example: my tribe says you must stop at red lights. Most people don’t object to that and wouldn’t consider it a moral sin.

    Conquest, is a sin. For example: My tribe will raid, pillage, murder rival tribes.

  89. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    25. May 2016 at 10:31

    “myb6, I think he’s targeting the racist vote, and there are a lot of them in the US. Read my recent comment sections if you don’t believe me.”

    The partisan Democrats forever yammering about the ‘Southern Strategy’ maintain we captured the racist vote back around 1970. Why are we jonesing for it if it’s in our pocket? Maybe you have a sit down with Paul Krugman and figure out what the line is, eh?

  90. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    25. May 2016 at 10:34

    The exact opposite compromise of what Lincoln advanced seems like the best way to have avoided the Civil War. Give the Confederacy complete sovereignty and independence in exchange for complete abolition of slavery.

    IIRC, a proposal was floated for compensated manumission in Delaware ca. 1861. No takers, and Delaware wasn’t all that invested in slave-labor agriculture. It is curious that manumission was effected in Brazil without violence and the much less slavery-ridden America had 600,000 deaths, but that’s the way it was. No plausible counter-factuals.

  91. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    25. May 2016 at 12:20

    “But Johnny threw rocks too”

    -All behavior must be placed in context. And America must be made Great Again.

  92. Gravatar of myb6 myb6
    25. May 2016 at 13:36

    Scott, you want to mock Trump for the silly stuff he says, I’m with you. But it’s wrong to call him a Nazi. He’s not. Neither are the vast majority of his supporters. Immigration-skeptic Nazi. And I believe you know it.

  93. Gravatar of myb6 myb6
    25. May 2016 at 13:38

    My post lost the less-than, greater-than punctuation. Immigration-skeptic does not equal Nazi.

  94. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    25. May 2016 at 18:01

    Massimo

    “Tribal manners forced on everyone within its borders are called laws.”
    “Obama isn’t racist?”
    etc.

    You are one twisted puppy, a real work of art. I don’t even have to do anything here but quote Orwell:

    “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.”

    Come to think of it, maybe that’s what Trump was reading, “1984”.

  95. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    25. May 2016 at 18:54

    myb6, You said:

    “But it’s wrong to call him a Nazi.”

    When did I call him a Nazi? I called him a racist.

  96. Gravatar of Prakash Prakash
    26. May 2016 at 00:18

    It’s rare to find a mind like Prof. Sumner caught in a contradiction.

    This is about the comment on nationalism vs. surveillance states. I think there is somewhat of a dilemma in social control.

    Belonging (either Nationalism or Religion) on one end
    and Surveillance States (or) Social Engineering on the other.

    One one side, there is a shared worldview in which most people have expectations drilled into them from birth and you understand where you are and how to behave in society. You assess outsiders by how much they fit into the worldview.

    On the other, these expectations are not truly clear and people have to be constantly reminded. Social engineering.

    Surveillance can serve 2 potential purposes. If there is a social engineering program in place, it can be used as the feedback mechanism. The other option is not caring about the going in the belonging direction at all. Just having a surveillance program in place to prevent the worst of atrocities and administer quick justice. Even the mildest of the surveillance programs , like David Brin’s sousveillance program , serves one of these purposes.

    Prof. Sumner, did you seek to endorse religion or some other encompassing worldview and social engineering in that comment? or do you disagree with the analysis above?

  97. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    26. May 2016 at 10:33

    Prakash, I disagree, libertarianism is a third option.

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