The age of cowardice

There are many commonalities between the extremes of the left and the right, including excessive identity politics and a distrust of the elites. Perhaps the most depressing has been the surge in “cancel culture”, along with the cowardice in moderates unwilling to confront the extremists. This tweet caught my eye:

And yet you still find a few dishonest pundits on the left who deny the existence of cancel culture.

The same phenomenon occurs on the right, where most GOP politicians and even many conservative reporters are afraid to tell the truth about Trump. If Trump were to suddenly die of a heart attack, dozens of GOP politicians would start mumbling about how all along they privately agreed with Liz Cheney, but were afraid of the wrath of the voters.

Yeats described our world 100 years ago:

The best lack all conviction, while the worst  

Are full of passionate intensity.

And here Auden nicely describes our current decade:

I sit in one of the dives

On Fifty-second street

Uncertain and afraid

As the clever hopes expire

Of a low dishonest decade

Waves of anger and fear

Circulate over the bright

And darkened lands of the earth,

Obsessing our private lives:

The unmentionable odour of death

Offends the September night.

PS. And how about this (about the Pelosi attacker):

Ms. Jenkins, said on Twitter that Mr. DePape would be arraigned on Tuesday.

The authorities are looking into whether the suspect is the same person responsible for blog posts that espoused antisemitism and contained an array of angry and paranoid postings, including concerns about pedophilia, anti-white racism and “elite” control of the internet.

Hmmm, he sounds exactly like some of my commenters.

PPS. On a lighter note, this made me laugh out loud:


Tags:

 
 
 

52 Responses to “The age of cowardice”

  1. Gravatar of foosion foosion
    29. October 2022 at 11:56

    I’d like to see some reasonably exact definition of “cancel culture”. The best I can discern is taking action against someone based on their statements, which is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, is it cancel culture to picket a speech by a Nazi sympathizer?

  2. Gravatar of foosion foosion
    29. October 2022 at 14:46

    Some background on Bennet’s firing: https://theracket.news/p/james-bennet-and-the-rewriting-of

    Doesn’t seem unjust.

  3. Gravatar of Tacticus Tacticus
    29. October 2022 at 15:42

    @ Foosion, that article is pretty terribly written from start to finish.

  4. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    29. October 2022 at 18:34

    Foosion, For God sake if you want to make an argument don’t send me that sort of garbage, make a reasoned argument. The firing of Bennet is a perfect example of cancel culture, totally unjustified. Bennet is not a Nazi sympathizer, to use your example.

    People are being cancelled merely for not accepting the most extreme woke ideology.

  5. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    29. October 2022 at 19:15

    The obvious big difference here is that the extreme of the right controls the right utterly, while the extreme left is not only fringe, but increasingly so. Moderate Democrats are slowly learning to ignore the extreme left, because they aren’t as powerful as many used to fear. I think Tyler Cowen was right early this year when he wrote that “woke” had peaked.

    The left has had a great deal of success in the culture wars in past decades, and the extremists represent those who are trying to push progressivism beyond rational limits.

    The right has come to understand that they lost the culture wars they care about years ago. That means, that for example, GM and many other large companies have suspended Twitter ad spending until they get some idea of what changes are coming to policies under Musk. The right is unlikely to get the kind of regressive content policies they want, because such policies are demonstrably bad for business.

    It also means ESG has arisen as a political issue as large investment firms try to appeal to investors who want to address externalities. So, many Republican controlled states, including Texas, are now attacking Black Rock, because they see any promotion of sustainability as necessarily left wing and hence, evil.

    And, of course, DeSantis attacked Disney in Florida for opposing the so-called “Don’t Say Gay” bill, as part of an appeal to an insane base that is sick and tired of failed boycotts that sought to dissuade Disney from producing films that openly promote gay characters, women in leadership, etc.

    To the extreme right-wing, the culture is lost and hence, they can’t win via republican government. They want a Christian nationalist dictatorship.

    As far as I can tell, cancel culture on the right began with the Moral Majority movement, which was led by the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. Pat Robertson was writing about the dangers posed by the “globalists” in the 80s, with tinges of antisemitism. That culminated in books like The New World Order, in 1992, for example.

    https://www.amazon.com/New-World-Order-Pat-Robertson/dp/0849933943

    Some non-trivial portion of the extremist right believe we are living near the end times and that the antichrist will soon appear and try to develop a one world government. This is one reason so many of them are anti-institutionalist and nihilists. They literally think the left, and now many in the middle and in corporate America, are trying to turn the world over to the antichrist.

  6. Gravatar of George George
    29. October 2022 at 21:09

    “Hmmm, he sounds exactly like some of my commenters.”

    Ironic, to me he sounds exactly like the site owner.

    Berkeley communist green party who smears and slanders jews (like LibsofTikTok, using crazy reference labels including projection of ‘nazi’), cavorting with the husband of the third in line to the presidency.

    Then all of a sudden starting August the guy starts ‘sounding like’ those the msm loves to target because they distrust the lying media, so the media portrays the leftist as a nazi, a persona who the site owner and the Democrats will gaslight the public to make them believe the leftist lover was a maga conservative, lol.

    All that op mockingbird rhetoric is textbook site owner.

  7. Gravatar of George George
    29. October 2022 at 21:16

    Site owner wrote:

    “People are being cancelled merely for not accepting the most extreme woke ideology.”

    The ‘woke ideology’ IS THE CORE OF THE ENTIRE LEFT ‘SYNTHESIZING’ ITSELF.

    If you reject the ‘extreme woke ideology’, congrats, you reject leftism.

  8. Gravatar of George George
    29. October 2022 at 21:17

    THIS MEANS IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL (ILLEGAL) WHEN IT HAPPENED 2020

    https://dcenquirer.com/trump-proven-correct-as-supreme-court-rules-mail-in-voting-due-to-covid-19-unconstitutional/

  9. Gravatar of George George
    29. October 2022 at 21:24

    An inside “source” “allegedly” told CNN and Inside Edition that Kanye West was obsessed with Hitler. But there is no footage of this.

    You see what the “news” is doing?
    They are clearly trying to ruin his life because he isn’t beholden to the establishment.

    youtu.be/HrcNGcaBZj8

    Notice pattern? Communist sympathizer site owner without evidence associates posters with ‘nazis’ because fake news used those words.

  10. Gravatar of George George
    29. October 2022 at 21:39

    Speaking of cowards, where are the money illusion blog posts condemning Katie Hobbs for sending out thousands of ballots without Kari Lake’s name on them?

    Or the 240,000 illegal ballots issued in PA?

    https://www.pahousegop.com/Display/SiteFiles/1/OtherDocuments/2022/10-25-22%20Ryan%20Keefer%20letter%20mail-in%20ballots.pdf

    Or the concern over the treason and criminal behavior as proved by information on Hunter laptop, implicating “the big guy”?

    A coward is seeing cowards.

  11. Gravatar of Sara Sara
    29. October 2022 at 22:09

    Thank you for finally speaking out against the social justice warriors.

  12. Gravatar of George George
    29. October 2022 at 22:30

    How Democrats politicize a lover’s tryst 101:

    Invoke politicization logic with a false narrative that the DePape was ‘motivated’ to take the hammer out of Pelosi’s hand and hit him over the head with it, because muh maga and muh qanon and muh right wing.

    Then pretend that that itself is not politicizing.

  13. Gravatar of Edward Aldecoa Edward Aldecoa
    29. October 2022 at 22:50

    How can populism be delusional.
    If a group of people want to celebrate Halloween, and a global organization tells them its now considered racist and bigoted towards people who don’t celebrate Halloween, and that any manifestation of this in public is disallowed, that one must cancel their boardroom Christmas party or change the name to happy holiday party, then how is that delusional?

    That’s what’s happening to cultures across the globe. It’s an attack on their sovereignty.

    In my country of the Philippines, we have a lot of fiesta’s. What right does some Global organization have to destroy our tradition of fiesta?

    Populism is the will of the people. If that will is exercised in a Republic to avoid the tyranny of the majority, then what is wrong with that? If the people of Texas compromise on abortion laws, and those laws call for abortion before quickening, what right does Washington have to force those people to negate on that compromise reached by their state reps?

    What right does the U.N have to declare the second amendment is violating their laws?

    None!

    Populism is only the will of the people. If you don’t support populism, then you don’t support the people.

    Nancy is a horribly corrupt person. As is liz cheney. The kings and the queens of the past were disposed, just like the pelosi’s and cheney’s of the present. Why can’t we dispose them and replace them with people who reflect our wishes? Why do we have to submit to your demands?

    I think its personally reasonable to replace remove them from office, assuming that’s what the people want.

  14. Gravatar of Tacticus Tacticus
    30. October 2022 at 03:44

    Edward, you might want to read some books on the French Revolution if you think following ‘the will of the people’ is a good thing.

    Also, how does populism, the will of the people, protect against the tyranny of the majority? Seems rather counter-intuitive.

    Also, also, what global organizations are telling people it is racist and bigoted to celebrate Halloween because it offends people who don’t celebrate Halloween? Are these the same global organizations trying to destroy your fiestas?

  15. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 05:59

    https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/pelosi-attack-suspect-was-a-psychotic

    A drug addict, touting BLM sign, LGBT rainbow flag, posting “Jesus is the anti-Christ”.

    Sounds kind of like the site owner, no Maga republican I’ve ever heard of.

    This guy isn’t a ‘microcosm’ of the opponents of the radical left, he’s a symptom of the drug induced psychosis gripping the west coast (the one closest to fentanyl producing China).

  16. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 06:03

    Tacticus:

    “Also, how does populism, the will of the people, protect against the tyranny of the majority? Seems rather counter-intuitive.”

    How would anti-populism, the will of an ‘elite’, protect against the tyranny of the minority? Seems rather counter-intuitive.

  17. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 06:43

    On this day 3 years ago, the US economy was the best it was in its entire history.

    Now look at the MESS a rigged and stolen election results in.

  18. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 07:07

    https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1586716740892999681

    Good morning the CEO of Twitter just told Hillary Clinton that Nancy Pelosi’s husband may have been in a drunken dispute with a male prostitute at 2am at their house have a nice day

  19. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    30. October 2022 at 08:41

    Michael, You said:

    “The obvious big difference”

    The obvious difference is in who is being attacked. The Democratic elites in Congress are mostly safe, the GOP elites are not. But cancel culture is probably even more pronounced on the left.

    Sara, You said:

    “Thank you for finally speaking out against the social justice warriors.”

    LOL, you are one of the most shameless liars in my comment section. I should ban you just for that lie.

    Edward, Nice. You can replace George when he gets banned.

  20. Gravatar of foosion foosion
    30. October 2022 at 10:40

    Still no definition of cancel culture.

    Firing an editorial page editor for running an editorial without reading it, especially when the editorial advocates illegal suppression of dissent and contains numerous falsehoods, does not seem at all unreasonable, let alone extremely “woke” (another term not well defined).

  21. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    30. October 2022 at 11:30

    foosion, Do even realize how disingenuous that comment is? You basically start with the premise that right wingers are promoting evil ideas (something they obviously disagree with.) Cotton would say he’s addressing violent riots, not peaceful protest. Then you suggest that NYT readers should not even be allowed to read the ideas of a huge part of America (Trumpistas are at least a third of the country.) I don’t agree with Cotton, but I have no problem with the NYT publishing the views of a US senator. People need to know what they think!

    Even if all your characterizations were true, honest people may disagree on whether obnoxious views should be published if they provide the reader with a window into right wing thinking. Then you suggest that a non-Trumpista reasonable person like Bennet should be fired for allowing an editorial that a big chunk of America agrees with? If you don’t see how crazy that is, nothing I say will help.

    Cancel culture is unjustified actions taken against people based on their expressed views, or associations, etc. That’s my definition.

    BTW, should the NYT editor who allowed the “defund the police” editorial be fired? Why or why not?

  22. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 12:04

    Site owner is having a meltdown.

    “Sara, You said:”
    “Thank you for finally speaking out against the social justice warriors.”
    “LOL, you are one of the most shameless liars in my comment section. I should ban you just for that lie.”

    OMG Sara was complimenting you and giving thanks for speaking out against the ‘woke’ cancellers. Sara just calls them SJWs, but it is clear that she meant the same thing.

  23. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 12:16

    https://i.imgur.com/busEOjC.jpg

    The left impeached a President for trying to expose a crime. And then replaced him with the person who committed the crime.

  24. Gravatar of Tacticus Tacticus
    30. October 2022 at 14:10

    Is George a paid troll, a bored troll, or just mentally ill? I really don’t know anymore.

  25. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    30. October 2022 at 14:39

    Scott,

    You wrote:

    “The obvious difference is in who is being attacked. The Democratic elites in Congress are mostly safe, the GOP elites are not. But cancel culture is probably even more pronounced on the left.”

    Are the Democratic elites safe from right-wing extremists? Pelosi certainly has not been, and it’s not the first time right-wing extremists have physically gone after her. ame with the governor of Michigan. How about various minority groups, like Jews, Asians, blacks, and hispanics? Are they safe?

    You defined cancel culture:

    “Cancel culture is unjustified actions taken against people based on their expressed views, or associations, etc. That’s my definition.”

    If we expand your defintion to include intimidation tactics, assault, and murder/attempted murder, I’d say the problem is considerably worse on the right. The left-wing extremists mostly try to cancel through the destruction of professional lives, and sometimes even attempt to shun from polite society entirely. The right-wing extremists assault, murder, try to steal elections, suppress votes, etc, in addition to trying to destroy people professionally. They’re increasingly openly authoritarian.

    Your point is taken about the Cotton editorial. It should have been published without apology, but at least Bennet wasn’t chased out of his job by fears for his life.

  26. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 15:17

    Tacticus, from my perspective you’re a troll because you disagree with my convictions, lol

  27. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 15:21

    https://i.imgur.com/fN0s0EP.png

    Now it makes sense.

  28. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    30. October 2022 at 15:52

    By the way, we see now that, in desperation, Putin is now saying Ukrainians are satanic, trying to appeal to Christian nationalists. I wouldn’t be surprised if this rhetoric is at least partly meant for Christian fundamentalists in NATO countries.

  29. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    30. October 2022 at 15:53

    https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/26/russia-ukraine-live-updates.html

  30. Gravatar of Sean Sean
    30. October 2022 at 16:15

    I think you are mostly wrong on Liz. She’s too connected to her dad and the right realizes they were heavily lied to when he was getting the country ready for war.

    And Musks is in the wrong for promoting the prostitute theory this early. It may be true but it seems at this point a low probability. But Biden also shouldn’t be promoting this guy as a violent Maga – he’s definitely a bit of everything and overall it’s best to not try to paint the other side with the few mentally ill people; even moreso when he’s as much left as right.

    And lab leak still won’t die. We will probably never know but the articles you were posting as proof of animal origin had already been debunked as oversold and only as evidence that the initial superspreader events were at the market.

  31. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 17:34

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586871691686223872

    The new CEO of Twitter is way better than the old one.

  32. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    30. October 2022 at 18:06

    Scott,

    another cowardice subject, and I’m a bit afraid to bring that up, is not speaking up against the more extreme narratives on climate change (extinction-type people, climate catastrophe etc). In the name of combating dangers that aren’t as extreme as they’re being depicted, a lot of policies are being pushed that are positively harmful for the planet, not to mention, very expensive. The right has its share or critics here, but as usually with the right, more out of habitual contrarianism. Anywhere else, no one dares to mention the obvious. And to me, the obvious is: climate is changing, as all things change. Humans have something to do with it, as with most things that change. Benefits from technology dwarf climate change risks by orders of magnitude. Adaptation is a good solution, as it always has been. If you really care about Co2, natural gas is a good first step. Fracking gets you gas to get off coal and the Russians, and nuclear gets you off gas. Solar panels create the same environmental problems in production than the other electronic wafers, which is what they are. Batteries, in cars or elsewhere, if scaled to world wide use, would consume gargantuan amounts, truly epic amounts, of precious, and toxic, metals. They are also very expensive and don’t last very long. Biofuel renewables wreck prime forests that are much more precious as biodiversity than as fuel source. Same for organic agriculture: much more land use than intensive agriculture. Veganism may consume less land than animal husbandry, but it still consumes land. You can’t get away from using resources, if you’re human, no matter what you do. Same logic as Bill Maher’s brilliant quip “America causes cancer”. etc etc.

    I am writing this because I just talked to a US friend who said her adult kids genuinely and bitterly believe that the climate extinction is upon us, that all is lost, and that boomer wrecked the world. And that is just ridiculously wrong in so many dimensions. And no one dares to say it. Disclaimer, I’m GenX as you know so this is not a self serving comment.

  33. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    30. October 2022 at 18:08

    Sean, When I look at the recent lies being spread by the GOP senate committee in favor of lab leak, it makes me even less likely to support the theory. Why do they need to lie? Are they that desperate to promote their conspiracy theory? Maybe they could get Dinesh D’Souza to make a film. That GOP committee is a disgrace.

    And no, the paper I cited has not been “debunked”. The location of the superspreader event was always the main point of the paper. Given that the Wuhan lab location is the ONLY piece of evidence lab leakers have, the fact that it started near the market and not the lab is extremely relevant. It makes the market a far more likely source, especially given that other pandemics began near animal markets. (All the other lab leaker “evidence” is basically a pack of lies or misleading information.)
    With all due respect, I’m far better informed on this issue that you are.

    “I think you are mostly wrong on Liz. She’s too connected to her dad and the right realizes they were heavily lied to when he was getting the country ready for war.”

    When people say things like this I wonder if they are being insincere, or if they are even more dense than I thought. She was super popular in Wyoming until the Jan 6 events, and then suddenly got tossed out, and you think that’s all because her dad favored the Iraq War? Is this a joke?

    I find it pathetic how old school Republicans desperately try to cling to the notion that their party is still sort of rational, and hasn’t become a bat shit crazy personality cult.

  34. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    30. October 2022 at 19:53

    By the way, on the right, they call their version of woke-ism “red pilling”. It often involves waking up with the perspective that the Democratic Party is run by satanic, communist, pedophile cannibals. It often means accepting the Great Replacement Theory. It often involves fears of a one-world government that’s constructed by and for the antichrist. And often, there’s the belief that a cabal of Jewish people are behind it all.

    Yes, much of the woke-ism on the left that I’m aware of seems silly. I agree with James Carville, who says that we need to ignore the fringe leftists who sound like they’re coming from the liberal arts college faculty lounge, using terms like “LatinX”, which even most Latinos and Latinas don’t want to use. I want to be careful though, because I may be missing something about woke-ism, since I pay so little attention to it. I haven’t found any of the perspectives I’ve heard compelling.

    Also, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect most Americans to care to recognize and understand 19 different gender categories, for example. I fully embrace the transgendered community and want them to have equal rights, funding for treatment, and think the treatment of trans children should be left up entirely to doctors who specialize in those conditions and the parents of the children involved. But, let’s keep the categories to male, female, and non-binary. I think we should respect the right of people who self-identify the way they want gender-wise, but let’s not go overboard in splitting hairs.

    Those things being said, is woke-ism worse, or red pilling? I think it’s obvious.

  35. Gravatar of George George
    30. October 2022 at 20:17

    Sean:

    I don’t let the site owner’s smears and accusations trick me into believing the ‘wet market’ conspiracy theory. I trust my judgment. You should keep digging the lab leak, keep researching it, if one blog owner wants to push a conspiracy theory while the world awakens to the truth about it being manufactured in Wuhan Institute of Virology, that won’t stop it.

    The ‘wet market’ conspiracy theory is the lie.

    Site owner offers ZERO informational substance to either prove his conspiracy theory or disprove the lab ‘leak’.

    Why does the site owner need to push the ‘wet market’ conspiracy theory? Why push the lie as truth? To protect the criminals responsible for it.

    Remember when Fauci lied about no funding before admitting there was funding?

    When GOP retakes House and Senate, Fauci is going to get subpoenaed.

    “the fact that it started near the market and not the lab”

    That isn’t a fact, lol. That is just RESTATING the wet market conspiracy theory! The NARRATIVE ‘it started in the wet market’ IS THE CONSPIRACY THEORY.

    “especially given that other pandemics began near animal markets”

    LOL, how do you know THOSE other pandemics weren’t also lab creations? You’re just restating and referencing the same ‘wet market’ narrative.

    Site owner is not more informed than Sean, site owner is misled and seemingly willingly brainwashed by a criminal conspiracy that the msm and China financed WHO, corrupt orgs protecting the wet market conspiracy theory narrative.

    Merely smearing the Senate Report as a ‘lie’ isn’t an argument.

    All evidence now open source (ESPECIALLY THE GENETIC STRUCTURE, which alone makes it impossible to have ‘naturally’ evolved, the number and location of spike proteins are the key markers of ‘gain of function’) points to it being manufactured (in the Wuhan lab), the only question now is whether the leak was an ‘accident’ or ‘intentional’.

    “And no, the paper I cited has not been “debunked”.”

    Yes it has. The wet market conspiracy theory was never proved by any animal carrier evidence. It was always and has remained a narrative without evidence, i.e. A ‘COVER STORY’ narrative to brainwash trusting viewers.

    With all due respect, I am far more informed on this subject matter than the site owner.

    In other topics I am more informed than the site owner:

    CCP infiltrated our elections systems. More court filings (you know, that word ‘evidence’, where I provide that and not just smears and accusations of ‘liar!’ to make up for having zero evidence.

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133.46.0.pdf

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133.46.1.pdf

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133.46.2.pdf

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133.46.3.pdf

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133/gov.uscourts.txsd.1888133.46.4.pdf

  36. Gravatar of Kangaroo Kangaroo
    30. October 2022 at 20:30

    Michael Sandifer said: “while the extreme left is not only fringe, but increasingly so. Moderate Democrats are slowly learning to ignore the extreme left”

    Yeah, don’t think so. “Moderate” democrats are just learning not to talk as loud. They’re more than happy to jump on board with left wing quackery when they can do it on the sly.

    Here in Seattle we really are going to Refund the Police! Yay! Soooo MIDDLE! Sensible! But no: we’re going to “refund” them with the new Respect for Criminals policing tactics. The headline news is “refund the police”! The behind-the-scenes reality is less effective policing – brought to you by “moderate” democrats.

    It’s closeted quackery, like the many scientists who still believe that the Population Bomb is basically right, but they know it’s uncouth to say so openly these days. They still act on that belief in many ways, just as “moderate” democrats frequently still act on the beliefs of the extreme left even though they don’t openly espouse them.

  37. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    31. October 2022 at 07:56

    mbka, I mostly agree, but I’m not sure on batteries. What about the argument that resource constraints and disposal of waste never ends up being as severe a problem as forecasters expect?

    Michael, The worst thing about the woke is that they are helping the right, every bit as much as if they were financed by Trump. Indeed the “defund the police” lunacy of 2020 almost cost Biden the election.

  38. Gravatar of Negation of Ideology Negation of Ideology
    31. October 2022 at 14:46

    Good post, but let’s remember there’s not an equivalence between the sides. The left is the only side calling for people to be silenced or fired from private sector jobs for differences of opinion. The right is simply trying to defeat people they disagree with in primaries.

    “The same phenomenon occurs on the right, where most GOP politicians and even many conservative reporters are afraid to tell the truth about Trump.”

    This statement is true, but those politicians are only afraid of losing elections, not being cancelled.

  39. Gravatar of Negation of Ideology Negation of Ideology
    31. October 2022 at 14:58

    foosion –

    “I’d like to see some reasonably exact definition of “cancel culture”. ”

    That’s a good question, and I don’t have an exact answer, but I do have some examples.

    1. I take my family to a restaurant. The waiter gives me a political speech. I tell him I’m there to enjoy dinner with my family not to hear his opinions. He refuses to stop, so I complain to the manager. The manager apologizes, gets me a new waiter, and gives him a warning. If it happens a few more times to other customers, he gets fired.

    2. I take my family to a restaurant. The waiter takes my order, then I google him and discover he made some posts I disagree with, so I complain to the manager. The manager apologizes, gets me a new waiter, and gives him a warning. If he does it a few more times to other customers, he gets fired.

    3. I don’t go to the restaurant, but I see that waiter’s posts while browsing. I google the restaurant he works at, then complain to the manager. The manager apologizes, gets me a new waiter, and gives him a warning. If he does it a few more times to other customers, he gets fired.

    I would argue that in examples 2 or 3, I would be engaging in cancel culture. I would argue case 1 is not cancel culture. The right (mostly) only believe in doing case 1, the left (mostly) believe in case 2 and 3.

  40. Gravatar of Andrew C Andrew C
    31. October 2022 at 15:57

    Scott, 2 questions
    1. I wonder what you think of the intersection of technology and cancel culture. To state something obvious, there have always been views that would get one shunned in respectable society. I’m reminded of William Lloyd Garrison being drug by a rope through mud for being an abolitionist. A more modern example would be if someone running for political office starting espousing Holocaust denial. It seems to me (this being what I want your opinion on) that the new phenomenon is due to people developing their own social circles with their own social acceptability standards, then trying to force those standards on everyone else. That doesn’t seem practical unless you have the technology to do both those things. It also calls for more persuasion and argument until a certain issue can be, so to speak, put to rest, such as the Holocaust is.
    2. I have no take on where Covid started, given that I haven’t bothered to put any effort into looking into the evidence. But after the discussion of the lab leak hypothesis, a few commentators I respect, Matthew Yglesias and Dylan Matthews among them, have mentioned that, regardless of the specifics of covid, creating more dangerous viruses in a lab entails a lot of risk. They’ve been arguing for the process to be shut down, just because of the possibility of an accident leading to a highly dangerous disease developed for research making its way out of a lab. What do you think of this?

  41. Gravatar of steve steve
    31. October 2022 at 16:15

    I think cancel culture of the kind most people think of takes place in some coastal areas and few other places around the country but its a fairly small culture. Where I work it doesnt exist. When we had people using the N word and they were asked to stop we didnt fire them. We did have our first ever DEI lecture.

    But when have we not had something you could call cancel culture? My first tour in the military was early 70s. If you were thought gay you were kicked out. We had guidelines to help find gays. Someone who was an overachiever, volunteered to work extra shifts at nights or on weekends. Heck, in boot camp they had a blanket party for a guy they just thought might be gay. He was really canceled, needing several days in the hospital. And why would redlining not count as canceling? You were excluded from a lot of jobs if you were the wrong sex or color. Try being an open atheist in small town America 60 years ago.

    Steve

  42. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    31. October 2022 at 17:53

    Scott,

    Yes, the excesses of left-wing cancel culture fit the paranoid narratives being pushed by right-wing extremists. It’s unfortunate that some liberals went from very effective persuasion approaches in the 80s and 90s to demands for conformity at the risk of cancellation. They should go back to the sorts of persuasive perspectives that were so successful in building support for gay rights, for example.

  43. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    31. October 2022 at 18:22

    Scott,

    point taken on resource constraints. Things might still work out.

    The wider point I was trying to make is, new technologies may eliminate some risks and some problems, but they also bring their own new risks and new problems. The narrative of “alternative” something-something systematically gets this wrong by assuming that alternative solutions will have only beneficial effects. And symmetrically, btw, there is a general unspoken assumption that all effects from climate change must by definition be negative. And why would that be the case? It’s entirely possible that it’s a toss-up, that the current climate isn’t something eternally optimal for all people at all times. But very few people care to look for any positive effects. Yet there are such people. They would point out that the limit of usable agricultural land in the Northern hemisphere has expanded substantially, or that heat deaths are usually dwarfed by cold deaths. Etc. So yes, warming helps quite a few people on this planet. But typically, studies are so overwhelmingly designed to search for negative effects, that the literature is massively biased towards finding them. Hence my trust in this field is low. Not because I think researchers are lying, mind you, but because they’re only thinking in one direction.

  44. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    31. October 2022 at 21:06

    Negation of Ideology,

    Are you serious? The right-wing has turned against democracy and toward violence and physical intimidation to get what they want politically. Also, what they want often makes no sense, as so many in the Republican base are dumb as rocks. And the bigotry is more open everyday.

    You actually wrote:

    “This statement is true, but those politicians are only afraid of losing elections, not being cancelled.

    lol Costing politicians their jobs isn’t being cancelled? Liz Cheney wasn’t cancelled? Nutjob Trump voters didn’t try to cancel Congress? How about attacks on Jews? Is that a form of cancellation? Is it Democrats voting for people like MTG?

  45. Gravatar of Carl Carl
    31. October 2022 at 23:43

    mbka:
    Good points regarding climate change. At a time when we are reminded again of the age old scourges of plague and war, it seems especially hyperbolic to me to hear someone claim a couple of degrees warming is an existential threat.

  46. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    1. November 2022 at 11:31

    Negation, The right engages in plenty of cancel culture.
    I read about examples almost every day.

    Andrew, You asked:

    “Matthew Yglesias and Dylan Matthews among them, have mentioned that, regardless of the specifics of covid, creating more dangerous viruses in a lab entails a lot of risk. They’ve been arguing for the process to be shut down, just because of the possibility of an accident leading to a highly dangerous disease developed for research making its way out of a lab. What do you think of this?”

    I’ve done many, many posts making exactly the same argument. Don’t do gain of function research.

    mbka, I agree that the costs are overstated, but given the structure of our modern world, I’m pretty confident they are net negative. Agriculture is ambiguous, but ocean rise and species extinction are almost certainly net negative.

  47. Gravatar of Negation of Ideology Negation of Ideology
    1. November 2022 at 16:23

    Scott – That’s probably true. I still maintain it’s primarily on the left. But I don’t have any data. Also, I noticed in my Case 3 above there’s an cut-and-paste error. Obviously, the manager wouldn’t get me a new waiter if I’m not at the restaurant!

    Michael – Your emotional response has almost nothing to do with my comment so I’ll ignore most of it. But I will note that your claim that a politician not getting reelected is being cancelled is one of the most amusing claims I’ve heard in a long time. So congratulations!

  48. Gravatar of Mark Z Mark Z
    1. November 2022 at 19:37

    It’s not really an issue of moderates vs. extremists (though that axis may be correlated). E.g., you favor legalizing heroin, which would make you pretty extreme in American politics. But if someone with more mainstream views tried to ‘cancel’ you, I don’t think you’d just argue that you’re right and they’re wrong and that your views *should* be mainstream, but rather would probably appeal to the value of ideological tolerance in general. The problem, here at least, isn’t with extremists per se, but people with a narrow conception of what should be socially acceptable, which is correlated but not equivalent. E.g., some socialists oppose ‘canceling’ conservative public figures and some moderate progressives support it. I’d prefer the company of the former to that of the latter, despite having greater political differences with the former.

    Most people hold at least some ‘extreme’ views – I wouldn’t be surprised if most people have at least one opinion that could get them fired or ostracized in some circumstances if it were publicly expressed. Encouraging a broader Overton window and greater ideological tolerance is more viable than trying to cobble together a coalition of ill-defined political moderates to pit against also ill-defined extremists.

  49. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    2. November 2022 at 09:11

    Negation of Ideology,

    Yes, I can see engaging you as a complete waste of time.

  50. Gravatar of Student Student
    2. November 2022 at 09:35

    This has truly been the most dishonest decade I have yet seen in my life. It also seems people are more prone to falling for lies as well. The level of conspiracy nuttage (both on the producing and consuming end) is way up.

  51. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    2. November 2022 at 09:36

    Mark, I agree.

  52. Gravatar of Philo Philo
    2. November 2022 at 10:26

    “If Trump were to suddenly die of a heart attack, dozens of GOP politicians would start mumbling about how all along they privately agreed with Liz Cheney, but were afraid of the wrath of the voters.” Maybe not: Trump may still, *post mortem*, be very popular with a large body of voters. You cannot expect “bravery” from a politician who needs these voters to win an election. (This describes many Republican politicians.)

Leave a Reply