Pure, 100%, unadulterated, anti-Chinese bigotry

The media is full of anti-Chinese bigotry, but rarely in as pure a form as this classic Daily Mail headline:

Further evidence emerges that China hid coronavirus truth from the world as study says Covid was circulating in Italy in September 2019

And the story itself is even worse.

So let me get this straight. We know that Covid-19 originated in China. How do we know? Because the Chinese “patient zero” got sick on November 17, 2019. That was the very first known case of Covid-19 in the entire world. So that’s how we know the virus originated in China; the earliest known cases were in China.

According to the Daily Mail, we now know that there were a bunch of Covid-19 cases in Italy in September 2019. I’m not sure that’s true, but let’s say it is. Which of these four is the most plausible implication:

a. The disease started in Italy and then spread to China.

b. The Italian government knew about these cases in September 2019, but covered them up.

c. The Chinese government covered up the fact that Covid-19 was circulating in China well before September 2019, and decided to take no action to slow the spread because . . . because . . . because . . . well because they welcomed having a disastrous pandemic and didn’t want to take any action to prevent Wuhan from being devastated in January. But once Wuhan was hit hard in January, they did take very aggressive actions to prevent the spread to other parts of China.

d. Borat is to blame.

So the Daily Mail thinks answer C is the most plausible.

Me? I’m not even convinced the story is true. But if it is true then we really have no idea where the virus came from. It could have come from Kazakhstan for all I know. Or China. Or Italy. Or the Congo.

If the story is true, then there are lots of other things we know to be true that no longer make any sense, such as that there were almost no deaths in China until January. And if you don’t trust Chinese data, look at Melbourne, or some other similar example. The caseloads grow exponentially. So if the Italian story is true then this suggests that the people who had Covid-19 in September 2019 had a different form of the virus, either less fatal or less contagious. Perhaps the virus mutated. Who knows?

Again, I don’t believe or disbelieve the story. I’d like a second opinion from someone less biased than the Daily Mail.

This post is not about Covid; it’s about bigotry. The Italian story provides zero evidence of a Chinese cover-up.



52 Responses to “Pure, 100%, unadulterated, anti-Chinese bigotry”

  1. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    16. November 2020 at 17:57


    Washington Post (belatedly?) seems to suspect the Wuhan virus…well, started in Wuhan, perhaps from lab leak or release.

    Ya’ think?

    Perhaps an independent investigation is warranted…

    Of course, all explanations of the true source of the Wuhan virus can be dismissed as “conspiracy theories” because…well, Beijing has stomped down on any investigations.

    Which leaves us where?

  2. Gravatar of xu xu
    16. November 2020 at 18:04

    Scott is a CCP funded academic that writes about how wonderful the CCP is. We have the same type of academics here in HK. The CCP pays them a stipend to write favorable articles.

    The truth is that the CCP is responsible for extrajudicial killings, kidnappings, imprisonment and extermination of Uighurs, funding of BLM/Antifa Marxists, theft of America’s intellectual property, invasion of Hong Kong, India, and the Spratly Islands, and have a general barbarous foreign policy termed “wolf warrior”.

    Sumner is bought and paid for. Don’t believe the left wing commie propaganda. Fight for your country, or people like Sumner will destroy it.

    Remember, I’m from Hong Kong, and I know the Chinese very very well. I’ve had to deal with them all my life. They are thugs and losers, and are hell bent on destroying America and the free world.

  3. Gravatar of harry harry
    16. November 2020 at 18:12

    Xu, you forgot the infiltration of Media organizations and bribing politicians.

    Other than that, you are 100% correct.

    But Good News! There are people defending freedom and liberty in the USA. Nevada just overturned Clark County results. And Sidney Powell dropped a hammer on MI, PA and GA. Chances of a Trump second term increasing by the hour.

  4. Gravatar of Will Will
    16. November 2020 at 18:32

    Re “xu”, the most amusing ad hominem attacks are the ones that don’t even the get ad hominem part right.

  5. Gravatar of jayne jayne
    16. November 2020 at 18:37

    I just cannot wait to see Sumner’s face when Sidney Powell destroys his communist dreams.

    Sidney Powell has been working with Dr. Shiva, and they have uncovered the exact algorithm used to change the election results.

    And get this: turns out the VP of smartmatic stated “Trump will not win, I’ll make sure of it” on a forum 6 days before election, and posted the ANITIFA manifesto on his personal facebook page.

    And what’s more: low and behold, this communist at smartmatic is also an academic.

    Academics, on average, seem to have a deep seated hated for humanity. They have a natural inclination towards the totalitarian left.

    Could it be Freudian projection?

  6. Gravatar of Market Fiscalist Market Fiscalist
    16. November 2020 at 18:47

    The Daily Mail is undoubtedly a scumbag newspaper that systematically promotes bigotry.

    Here is an article they ran recently on a Black British soccer player who took a stand on free school meals for impoverished children:


  7. Gravatar of janice janice
    16. November 2020 at 19:53

    For those of you that are interested in evidence, and not CNN + Sumner Brainwashing you can see it here.


    There is more to come. But this is already shocking.

  8. Gravatar of Gam Gam
    16. November 2020 at 20:42

    hereistheevidence.com is the least persuasive website I have ever seen in my life. And I’ve looked at Flat Earther websites.

  9. Gravatar of Brian Brian
    16. November 2020 at 20:56

    Janice please just post the good stuff or don’t post at all. Nobody wants to waste their time going through all of it.

  10. Gravatar of Ray Lopez Ray Lopez
    16. November 2020 at 21:41

    Is Dr. Sumner so dumb? He frames choice “C” in such a stupid fashion you think he’s playing dumb? Besides what Ben Cole says, you have the prestigious UK Lancet group saying: “The possibility of laboratory involvement in the origins of the pandemic should be examined with scientific rigor and thoroughness, and with open scientific collaboration.” – and Australia tried to call for just that, but they got hit with trade sanctions by China.

    Sumner should also know better since I spam him with a mass mailing that describes the reasons why the Covid-19 virus is man made (a couple of dozen emails going back to April).

    I think I need to send Scott my copy of Beatrice and Sidney Webb’s book “Soviet Communism : a New Civilisation? (1936 edition, in the subsequent edition they dropped the question mark).

  11. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    16. November 2020 at 22:35

    Ben, Don’t you understand that the CIA planted it there to make China look bad. It’s obvious.

    Xu, Is this a joke?

    Harry, Is this a joke?

    Jayne, Is this a joke?

    Janice, Is this a joke?

  12. Gravatar of Ray Lopez Ray Lopez
    16. November 2020 at 22:59

    @SS – jokes on you. By your own admission we are all trolls, and you’re feeding the trolls by responding to them. Don’t you have anything better to do on a Monday night? Like disco?

  13. Gravatar of Cartesian Theatics Cartesian Theatics
    16. November 2020 at 23:23

    I think bigotry is the wrong word. It’s not directed at the Chinese people. But yeah, pretty bad title and article. If you really want to go anti-china, just talk about the doctors that were locked up for sounding an alarm (which they barely touch).

    As for origin story, it’s not that interesting of a question because these labs are internationally funded and managed anyway. Also, the article stated that China has agreed to work with the WHO to investigate the origin (as the have said they would from the beginning).

  14. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    16. November 2020 at 23:31

    Scott Sumner–

    I have a weakness for “the CIA did it” hypotheses.

    But, in this case, the execution and planning needed to pant the Wuhan virus probably exceeded the capabilities of the US intelligence agencies.

    The evidence, at least that which is known, does strongly point to a lab leak or release in Wuhan. If Beijing has exculpatory evidence, they are keeping it under tight seal, and also demolishing evidence and disappearing witnesses.

    But perhaps “pasta was the source of COVID-19” is a live option.

  15. Gravatar of eris23 eris23
    16. November 2020 at 23:48

    Found in Barcelona wastewater March 2019 (or possible contamination): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.13.20129627v1

    In Florianopolis (Santa Catalina, Brazil) wastewater November 2019: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.26.20140731v1

    In Milan/Urin wastewater December 2019: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.25.20140061v1

  16. Gravatar of Tacticus Tacticus
    17. November 2020 at 03:31

    To be fair, the Daily Mail doesn’t believe this, they just know it will sell well to all the bigots.

    Reading the actual journal article, it should be noted that the authors claim to have found Covid-19 antibodies on 3 September. That would indicate that Covid-19 itself was circulating in August.

    I’m not sure I believe it, but that’s partially because the Wuhan Wet Market narrative has been around for so long and is so engrained now. If the virus was in Italy in August, I would speculate that it was a different strain, simply because no one noticed the virus until Wuhan, which seems to suggest, on balance, that that’s where the virulent strain originated. We’ve clearly seen that Italians are not overly-immune, so if it was the same strain how did no one notice it for another five months?

  17. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    17. November 2020 at 03:33

    “Italian scientists say sewage water from two cities contained coronavirus traces in December, long before the country’s first confirmed cases.
    The National Institute of Health (ISS) said water from Milan and Turin showed genetic virus traces on 18 December.
    It adds to evidence from other countries that the virus may have been circulating much earlier than thought.”

  18. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    17. November 2020 at 03:44

    For consideration?

    “The US government, once they determined that this Dominion server was involved in switching votes, then the intelligence community began a search for the server and discovered that the server was in Germany. In order to get access to that server and have it available for use in a legal manner they had to have the State Department work in tandem with the Department of Justice. They had to request that the government of Germany cooperate in allowing this seizure of this server. . . .
    By getting ahold of the server they now are going to have the direct evidence of when they were instructed to stop counting. They will also discover who gave the direction to stop counting and who initiated the algorithm that started switching votes. The CIA was completely excluded from this operation.”

  19. Gravatar of Tacticus Tacticus
    17. November 2020 at 04:24

    I don’t know if Postkey is a real person or a bot, but none of that happened. Just nonsense right-wing clickbait.

  20. Gravatar of Thomas Hutcheson Thomas Hutcheson
    17. November 2020 at 04:33

    What are the policy implications of this being true?

    Increased surveillance only in China but in OECD countries to find novel pathogens sooner?

  21. Gravatar of sty.silver sty.silver
    17. November 2020 at 05:21

    @janice, I think there is an important lesson to learn here. A lot of people make the mistake of asking ‘is there any evidence that seems to back up my position’ rather than ‘is there more evidence that backs up my position than I would expect if my position were false?’. Any complicated process has tons of perceived irregularities purely by chance. If you know this, then the site you linked isn’t *any* reason to suspect things went wrong. I haven’t looked at it in detail, but a brief glance showed nothing that I wouldn’t expect if there were no fraud.

    If you want to arrive at truth, the only way is to honestly ask the second question. Is there, in fact, more evidence than you would expect if there were no fraud? How much evidence would you expect if there were no fraud? Do you expect Trump to not tweet about fraud if there were none?

  22. Gravatar of yo yo yo yo yo yo
    17. November 2020 at 06:13

    So anyone have any ideas for an Italian-themed “kung flu” equivalent?

  23. Gravatar of Kirk Kirk
    17. November 2020 at 07:40

    These comments are blowing my mind.

    Harry, nothing has been “overturned” in Clark county, NV. There was a local race that was decided by less than ten votes, so it can be recounted; but it has no effect on the presidential race. And Sidney Powell has no hammers to drop. Trump and the GOP are 1-24 on election related lawsuits, and the 1 has no effect on the outcome.

    Scott, I’m sorry you had to find out that you are a communist from Jayne this way.

  24. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    17. November 2020 at 08:20

    Cartesian, You said:

    “just talk about the doctors that were locked up for sounding an alarm”

    Link? Or just more anti-Chinese bigotry?

    eris23, March 2019? Where does this end?

    Soon they’ll have samples from the 1970s from the middle of Iowa.

    Tacticus, That’s my view as well.

    Kirk, The thing that I find so funny is that the only major case of “fraud” discovered so far is 2500 votes mysteriously uncounted in a GA county—WHICH IS OVERWHELMINGLY REPUBLICAN. If you can’t trust Republican vote counters, who can you trust?

  25. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    17. November 2020 at 08:31


    Is ‘this’ ‘true’?

    “Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism. “

  26. Gravatar of msgkings msgkings
    17. November 2020 at 08:59


    They overturned the Clark County commissioner’s race, not a single vote for president was affected. Apparently, 6 people may have voted twice. 6 of them.


    But keep dreaming, maybe like Lavar Ball you can speak it into existence.

    The chance of Trump being president on January 21 is zero point zero

  27. Gravatar of msgkings msgkings
    17. November 2020 at 09:05

    @yo yo yo

    Veronavirus maybe?


  28. Gravatar of Michael Rulle Michael Rulle
    17. November 2020 at 09:41

    I really do not buy the bigotry angle.

    People, journalists maybe more than most, are not exactly logical thinkers. However, we all have different first reactions based on our own obsessions. Scott is obsessed with China bigotry. I think he mistakes, for example, the US’s dislike for CCP with dislike for Chinese people. Despite Harvard unadmitted bias against Asians.

    My first thought on reading this story, given my obsession, is how little we understand the real facts of Covid—deaths, cases, IFR CFR, excess deaths, masks, Japan vs US–etc, etc. So when Italy discovered “Covid” in September of 2019, it merely reinforced my belief that (almost) everything we think we know about Covid is wrong.

  29. Gravatar of Student Student
    17. November 2020 at 10:20

    Why don’t the “stop the steal” types is place bets? They are catching ~9-1 odds. Yet more evident the vast majority of them don’t even believe what they say they believe.

    @yo yo yo… I vote the Milanese Disease.

  30. Gravatar of Michael Rulle Michael Rulle
    17. November 2020 at 11:03

    Scott, You never discuss China’s exporting of fentanyl to US—–it seems like something that could be stopped by them——any thoughts?

  31. Gravatar of eris23 eris23
    17. November 2020 at 11:41

    Antibodies in Italy from September 2019: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755

  32. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    17. November 2020 at 12:50


    A great many articles in the Daily Mail, if not most, are built in this sensational scapegoat style. I would simply overlook that. You don’t complain about the other crackpot articles either.

    Your blog post, seen in this light, really only proves your China fixation, namely China as the great victim of the Western world and the Western media, even if you have to search for so long until you finally end up with a yellow paper like the Daily Mail.

    Yes, you are right, the Daily Mail is at war with about 100 million different individuals and whole countries around the world. You really caught them with their pants down.

    I personally love the Daily Mail for its fearless coverage in other areas. For example, in Germany there is an extremely high level of politically correct, and also legally prescribed, censorship in the media.

    One reads sentences like: “The man S. killed his wife in a ‘family drama’.” — But who is Mr. S. and what in the world is a ‘family drama’?

    You have to read the Daily Mail to find out. The Daily Mail is a great censorship breaker in quite some areas. Since the internet, one can read the Daily Mail from Germany, and since then German media finally writes more about the background of stories. The bigotry, if it exists, one simply has to ignore.

    It’s a bit like the yellow papers in Men in Black: quite some news is hidden in them, if you know how to read them right.

    I would be careful about this “study” though. Didn’t you forget option e), which is actually the most likely: the study is crap. A lot of crap.

    Antibodies are a science of their own. They used ELISA tests. To me, it smells a lot like junk science. As the most distinguished German corona expert Professor Drosten said: Before the Covid-19 pandemic he had to read two papers on corona in order to get one good paper. Today he has to read 100 papers for the same result, because so many scientists have jumped on the bandwagon without actually knowing what they are doing.

    Another source of error is our pattern recognition. Humans like to see patterns retrospectively, where there are no patterns at all. At the beginning of the pandemic, there were studies of X-rays from France, which were also looked at retrospectively. The scientists suddenly saw Covid-19 everywhere where there was no Covid-19 at all.

    The most serious investigation in this area might have been the antigen tests carried out in the Italian sewerage system, because in this case they tried to detect the virus directly, not only the antibodies. But also in this case ELISA was used. There are many sources of error. I wouldn’t trust them. It needs more research and time.

    The current logic, which should make sense to anyone, without a study, is this: We have a menacing virus, which is so dangerous because it can form dangerous, immensely large clusters in a very short time, causing a certain percentage to become seriously ill and leading to the collapse of the hospital system.

    This ability was first seen in Wuhan, and simple logic suggests that these pathogenic properties, these mutations, must have originated in this part of the world, and not somewhere else, simply because otherwise we would have seen clusters in other parts of the world before Wuhan.

  33. Gravatar of agrippa postumus agrippa postumus
    17. November 2020 at 16:52

    the key to understanding sumner is finding the match of his folie a deux. I’ve considered Mikey from the Life Cereal ads of the 70s, Ho Chi Min, the entire cast of Spamalot, Fred C. Dobbs, Talleyrand, Savonarola, the Red Queen, Uncle Fester, the black hole funnel from literature to life of Cardinal Pandolf, Fastaff, Tulkinghorn and M. Bovary, but none really fit. So, you recurring milfoil of mediocrity on this blog, spew your guess. Guesses disqualified if not also ironic and scornful of sumner, or if from non-Tacitus, lives-in-a-sty, sumner, or longer than 25 words.

  34. Gravatar of Greg Greg
    17. November 2020 at 21:14

    Not sure why you want to waste a post on a piece from Daily Fail–I mean, Daily Mail.

    Here is an opinion piece by your favorite economist, Tyler Cowen, at a slightly more reputable journal Bloomberg: “Covid Is Increasing America’s Lead Over China” (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-11-16/u-s-china-and-the-covid-19-vaccine-race). Most of the contents are pretty conventional, even boring, with the usual cliche and lies against China. But there is one novel assertion that caught my attention:

    “Yes, the U.S. has botched its response to Covid-19. At the same time, its experience shows that America as a nation can in fact tolerate casualties, too many in fact. It had long been standard Chinese doctrine that Americans are “soft” and unwilling to take on much risk. If you were a Chinese war game planner, might you now reconsider that assumption? ”

    I’ve heard recently that the Chinese are accusing that the US has an advantage of low human rights cost as demonstrated in how it deals with Covid. Cowen appears to confirm that, albeit with a slightly different spin.

    It’s an upside down world.

  35. Gravatar of Mark Z Mark Z
    17. November 2020 at 21:34

    So, the Chinese state and the Chinese people are one and the same then? If so we’ve really had an epidemic of “anti-Russian bigotry” these past few years.

  36. Gravatar of Cartesian Theatics Cartesian Theatics
    17. November 2020 at 23:36


    Evidence of doctors being detained:

    You’ve promulgated the unverified words of warhawks like John Bolton, so I say fair game.

    Also, you’re accusing me of bigotry? That’s not fair. I oppose authoritarianism wherever I see it.

  37. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    18. November 2020 at 00:09

    Tacticus: No answer was the strange reply.

    I can only conclude that T. is willingly/unwillingly a shill for the plutocracy and the M.I.C.?

  38. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    18. November 2020 at 00:27

    The ‘goose’, S.B.S. asks Cartesian for a link {quite right}, but accepts uncritically the comment of Tacticus { . . . but none of that happened. Just nonsense right-wing clickbait.}. No asking for a link.

    More cognitive dissonance?

  39. Gravatar of Tacticus Tacticus
    18. November 2020 at 03:29

    50% chance that Postkey is a GPT-3 bot. 100% chance they are not intelligent. Turing Test failed. Try, try again.

  40. Gravatar of Michael Rulle Michael Rulle
    18. November 2020 at 06:59

    Because I have worked with complex data and analysis for 35 years or so, I have developed this deep cynicism (I think realism) about so much of what is accepted as true. This per se, of course, does not make me good at it. It does make me very familiar with it. In my experience, simply disbelieving what is generally believed will make one right a significant percentage of the time.

    Examples of what I do not yet believe include 1) anthropomorphic climate change. This one is easy because we do not have an operational definition of climate change. Global warming? The most precise data is 1979-2020 satellite data—-which appears similar to ocean and land based data. We assume CO2 causes warming—-but many believe warming causes increased CO2. Since climate science may be the most complex physical science of all, the first thing we need to explain is what causes temperature change in the absence of industrial emissions. We have no idea. 2) Any predictive macroeconomic model, ——this should be obvious. 3) weight loss studies (duh) —many more.

    I do believe Covid exists, that is obvious. We seem to have a vaccine which is as good as measles vaccine—I believe that. But how dangerous is Covid? I do not think we know. It is one of the prime examples of confirmation bias we have ever seen.

    I like comparing it to what we claim to know about H1N1. The CDC, on its website, says the following. I also assume these numbers are wrong. They claim, in the 12 month period ending in 4/2010, between 40 to 80 million had contracted H1N1. So far we have 11 million Covid cases. We have many reasons for this difference. But this is what we say the numbers are. Between 200-400k were hospitalized. 10-20 million died. We estimate that 550k have been hospitalized (annualized 12 month period) with Covid.

    We do know that we count any death with Covid as deaths from Covid. And we do this daily. Flu, uses a model based on a number of factors. It takes two years to get the final estimate for any year. What we do not do with flu, is assume a death if one died of heart disease, cancer , or any other such disease. Although their models may capture some of those by coincidence. Since 40-80 million (I don’t believe that number, but CDC does) had flu —-and about 2.7 million people died that year of all causes, how many had the flu who also died (although not contemporaneous necessarily with their time of death) from other causes? Between 350k and 700k. (40/310 x 2.7mil= 350k——310mil was population).

    Due to lack of simultaneity, this is too large. But 10k?

    My point is we really have no idea. Imagine if Obama listed daily flu cases? And deaths “with flu” were also listed? To repeat what Biden new chief of staff said they got lucky. Or maybe they miscounted. Or, Trump got unlucky—-as methods of counting could not be more different

    Please, no “.1” percent death rate on H1N1. That is completely circular. We have no,idea.

  41. Gravatar of Michael Rulle Michael Rulle
    18. November 2020 at 07:14

    10000-20000 died of H1N1 not millions!

  42. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    18. November 2020 at 08:29

    Tacticus: No answer was the strange reply.

    I can only conclude that T. is willingly a shill for the plutocracy and the M.I.C.?

  43. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    18. November 2020 at 08:30


    I can only conclude that T. is willingly a shill for the plutocracy and the M.I.C.?

  44. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    18. November 2020 at 12:23

    Michael, You said:

    “You never discuss China’s exporting of fentanyl to US—–it seems like something that could be stopped by them——any thoughts?”

    If China can stop the exports, why can’t we stop the imports? I’m not sure either government can stop the illegal drug trade. Maybe they both should stop trying.

    Christian, You said:

    “I would be careful about this “study” though. Didn’t you forget option e), which is actually the most likely: the study is crap. A lot of crap.”

    You really need to read posts twice before commenting, as your reading comprehension skills are poor. I said:

    “So the Daily Mail thinks answer C is the most plausible.
    Me? I’m not even convinced the story is true.”

    The post is not about Covid, it’s about bigotry. I have no interest in the Italian study. Who cares?

    Greg, I still think we are soft when it comes to war, but so are the Chinese.

    Mark, The Daily Mail assumes the “Chinese people” brought Covid to Italy. Why make that assumption?

    Cartesian, You said “doctors”, not “reporters”. I can’t say that no doctor has been locked up for blowing the whistle on Covid, but your links provide zero evidence for your claim.

    BTW, I’ve done a number of blog posts critical of the CCP silencing Chinese doctors who warned of Covid, but the news reports did not suggest the doctors (including the one who died) were actually locked up. That’s all I’m saying, I’m not defending the CCP, just asking for accuracy.

  45. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    18. November 2020 at 13:05

    The post is not about Covid, it’s about bigotry. I have no interest in the Italian study. Who cares?


    I have written about both points, so much for reading comprehension.

    The study, and the science behind it, is the only interesting point about the whole article. And the study, unfortunately, is rubbish. Now that was that.

    Now to your second point: You picked out the Daily Mail (!!!), from all the Western media, you must have searched, as I said before, for quite a long time, then you finally landed in England, at the Daily Mail. Wow, okay.

    And with that absurd newspaper you now want to prove your thesis of the bigotry of the West and the Western media. You could not have chosen a worse example.

    You have only “proven” that the Daily Mail is bigoted. A newspaper that everyone knows is bigoted, but not only against CCP China, but against everything and everyone that is not “British” in their vary narrow sense.

    In other words, you haven’t proven anything. Here is the analogy: You have only proven that Hitler was a Nazi. – Yes, he was, but trying to “prove” that is incredibly pointless.

  46. Gravatar of Cartesian Theatics Cartesian Theatics
    18. November 2020 at 17:32


    From the Yahoo news article:
    “Wuhan doctor Ai Fen, who expressed early concerns about the coronavirus to the media, has disappeared and is believed detained by Chinese authorities.”

    From the Business Insider article:
    “Li [Wenliang] had sent a message to a group of medical school alumni, warning them about a mysterious new illness. But local police reprimanded and silenced him.”

  47. Gravatar of Michael Sandifer Michael Sandifer
    18. November 2020 at 19:07

    I love the absurdity of wanting to punish other countries for selling us what our citizens want. It’s their responsibility to be the adults for our consumers? I don’t think that even our government should try to do that.

    These anti-Chinese bigots really are thoughtless.

  48. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    19. November 2020 at 10:41

    Cartesian, I guess some people don’t care about accuracy. I can’t prove it didn’t happen, but you haven’t provided evidence.

    Michael, I agree.

  49. Gravatar of Michael Rulle Michael Rulle
    19. November 2020 at 11:15

    Scott—Your answer on fentanyl is amazing—yes, just providing a service. I don’t blame sellers for use by buyers.I do blame sellers who could stop it with ease, but don’t.

  50. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    19. November 2020 at 15:06

    @Michael Rulle
    Blaming CCP China for a drug, that organized crimes delivers illegaly to the US because US drug addicts demand it, is absurd, and you know it.

  51. Gravatar of Nick S Nick S
    20. November 2020 at 05:11

    Again, commenters falling into the trap of attempting to argue the wrong point.

    Sumner – I completely agree with everything you said in this post, with the exception of your allegation of bigotry? Your assertion adds fuel to the “identity politics” fire. How is this bigotry? Just because a point is made about “Chinese People” does not been the point was rooted in bigotry. Why do so many discussions rooted in logic and thought have to transition so quickly to identity and race? I understand this makes for good media and web traffic, but definitely not for healthy and productive discussion.

  52. Gravatar of Michael Rulle Michael Rulle
    20. November 2020 at 06:11

    Christian List

    The reason I assign blame—-you can determine how much blame is “absurd” —- to CCP is because an extremely large percent of fentanyl that enters the US comes from China. I assume that an authoritarian state with the tracking capability of China could stop much more than they do. Maybe they do stop 90% and they all get executed. But my opinion is they do not.

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