Alternative for America

The German political party “Alternative for Germany” was founded in 2013 by a bunch of professors who thought the euro was a mistake, largely responsible for the depression in southern Europe.  Its other views tended to be fairly mainstream conservative.

Not any more.  In just three short years the AfD has morphed into a xenophobic, nationalist, pro-Russian party with nostalgia for the days when East Germany was run by the communists.  Many of its original supporters have abandoned the party:

It is not clear why the AfD is so popular in [low income, eastern] Mecklenburg. Its hallmark is anti-immigrant rhetoric. But Mecklenburg has just 23,000 refugees, or 1.5% of the population. Foreigners make up 3%, and most are Poles or ethnic Germans from Russia. Muslims are a rare sight. Yet even before the refugee crisis, about one in three locals told pollsters that “because of the many Muslims, I sometimes feel like an alien in my own country”.

Mecklenburg does have a longstanding core of far-right voters: it is the only state where the NPD, a party considered neo-Nazi, has seats in the assembly. But the AfD draws more support from former non-voters and The Left, a party descended from East Germany’s communists. In the West, that may seem illogical. But it matches the gut feelings of many locals. One of the AfD’s themes is Ostalgie, “nostalgia for East Germany”. It nurtures a sense of solidarity against all outsiders, including western Germans and cosmopolitan elites.  Since reunification people in the region have felt they were “overrun by the West”, says Mr Holm.

At campaign events Mr Holm evokes 1989, when Ossis marched in solidarity against the communist regime. Now the enemy is perceived political correctness imposed by Berlin. The tone is invariably pro-Russian and anti-American. Asked how they feel about Russia’s invasion of Crimea, supporters compare it with America’s war in Iraq. “If the Ami does it it’s okay, but if Russia does it, it’s wrong?” asks one.

Actually, yes.  We did not annex Iraq.

To give you an idea of just how bizarre this is, imagine an American analogy:

1.  Suppose that in just a few years, the formerly anti-big government Tea Party was taken over by a nationalist faction that favored a xenophobic, soft on Russia, big government, more spending, vastly bigger deficits, anti-trade, anti-free press candidate who railed against political correctness and elites in general.

2.  And suppose the core supporters of this candidate were not in affluent Republican areas, but rather in poor white areas like West Virginia.  And suppose those poor whites of West Virginia were freaking out about immigration, despite the fact that hardly any immigrants want to live in their poor, backward state.

I know, I know, it could never happen here.  But then 3 years ago I would have said there wasn’t one chance in a million that the AfD would suddenly change into a party with nostalgia for East Germany.

Lesson: As I keep saying, it’s not about who wins and loses elections, it’s about the nature of the parties, and how they change over time.  FDR and LBJ made the GOP more moderate (for a while).  Reagan and Thatcher made the Dems and Labour more moderate (for a while), and so on.  That’s what matters.

If you make a pact with the devil, and allow your favorite party to be taken over by evil people, and vote for them anyway as the “lesser of evils”, you’ll find out that in the long run you’ve only made the opposition stronger, and you’ve completely discredited your favored ideas, which won’t even be adopted by the usurper who stole your party.  No, your ideas will not be adopted.  But when he or she fails, as he surely will, your ideas will be blamed, and discredited.

The next president will be a failed president, and will be rejected by the voters in 2020.  The election you really want to win is the 2020 election, which will offer the possibility of dramatic policy reform.  What shape do you want your party to be in at that time?  Do you want it to be a discredited party, about to be steamrollered by the opposition?  Or the eager opposition party, about to take charge?

If I were a Republican (I’m not), I’d pray for Hillary to be defending her record in 2020


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84 Responses to “Alternative for America”

  1. Gravatar of David R. Henderson David R. Henderson
    5. September 2016 at 08:43

    @Scott Sumner,
    You write:
    FDR and LBJ made the GOP more moderate (for a while).

    How did FDR make the GOP more moderate? He moved the GOP left. Is that what you mean?

  2. Gravatar of Chuck Biscuits Chuck Biscuits
    5. September 2016 at 08:58

    It’s shocking how completely out-to-lunch liberal academics are.

  3. Gravatar of Gary Anderson Gary Anderson
    5. September 2016 at 09:08

    I am a liberal for gun rights. I think the Dems are out to get your guns and the Republicans are out to make you hate Muslims.

    And if you look at Israel, who we are supposed to be modeled after since the coup took out JFK, that nation has strict gun control laws and hates Muslims.

    So, both parties are owned by the globalists and Israel. If you don’t believe that you have not studied.

    Having said that, Trump is the most dangerous, as he hates Muslims toeing the implicit Republican party line.

    Republicans are the party of hatred of Muslims and I don’t know what it will take to make that irrelevant.

  4. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    5. September 2016 at 09:24

    “The next president will be a failed president, and will be rejected by the voters in 2020.”

    -Agreed.

    “The election you really want to win is the 2020 election, which will offer the possibility of dramatic policy reform. What shape do you want your party to be in at that time? Do you want it to be a discredited party, about to be steamrollered by the opposition? Or the eager opposition party, about to take charge?”

    -The GOP IS the eager opposition party, about to take charge now. As for favoring 2016 or 2020, it depends what your goals are. My goals are for conservative replacements on the Supreme Court, a speedy end to the Islamic State and the Libyan and Syrian Wars, and an end to U.S.-Russian animosity on Ukraine. Border enforcement is a teritary goal and a strict avoidance of all amnesty is a primary one. All this seems to be more likely done by Trump in 2017-2021 than by Hillary Rotten Clinton and whatever GOP yahoo may rise to the top after a Her administration.

    “We did not annex Iraq.”

    -That’s because its population was not majority English-speaking and American. Even proposition nationalists understand the impoverished Iraqis under Saddam could not and would not fit the relevant proposition. If Iraq was filled with a majority of English-speaking Americans, annexation would be supported by maybe, oh, 89% of the American population and an even greater percentage of the American-Iraqis:

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/

    “FDR and LBJ made the GOP more moderate (for a while).”

    -Richard Nixon was nominee both in 1960 and 1968. Barry Goldwater was the nominee when LBJ actually ran. Reagan ran a strong primary challenge to Gerald Ford. “More moderate” how?

    “Reagan and Thatcher made the Dems and Labour more moderate (for a while), and so on.”

    -If you mean “more pro-coal-industry”, you are spot-on.

  5. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    5. September 2016 at 09:26

    Also, did FDR really make the GOP more moderate? In 1928, socialists could find a ready acceptance on a certain wing of the Republican Party. I doubt that was any longer the case in 1945.

  6. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    5. September 2016 at 09:48

    I predicted the raise of the AfD months ago on this blog and people like the ever ignorant mbka laughed at me. The raise of the AfD is explained very easily: They simple took the political positions that the Christian Democrats held before Merkel took over. It’s not like those people moved to the right, Merkel moved extremely to the left during her reign leaving a very huge space behind her. Of course this creates a huge power vacuum that will be refilled that’s not hard to understand except for the amateurish political leaders of our times obviously.

    And the article in The Economist is disastrous by the way. Very one-sided. Hardly any facts. It’s basically an opinion. Call it opinion piece then and publish it under opinion pages. What The Economist is doing here is very dishonest. You can say about the NYT what you want but what I read from their reports about the migrations crisis in Europe was (in most cases) true reporting and not some stupid opinion pieces barely dressed up as serious reports. The Economist seems to be very ideological and very biased regarding this topic. Any bets they totally missed the Brexit and the reasons for it as well.

  7. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    5. September 2016 at 10:25

    David, You asked:

    “How did FDR make the GOP more moderate? He moved the GOP left. Is that what you mean?”

    Yes, I assume that if the conservative party moves left, it becomes more moderate. If the progressive party moves right, it becomes more moderate.

    Chuck, Yup, also true of many commenters. And many conservative academics. And many liberal and conservative non-academics.

    Harding, I meant that LBJ crushing Goldwater made the GOP more moderate.

    You said:

    “If you mean “more pro-coal-industry”, you are spot-on.”

    No, I mean more neoliberal.

    Eventually the GOP accepted Social Security, the minimum wage, the end of the gold standard, etc. That’s due to FDR.

  8. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    5. September 2016 at 10:28

    Christian, You said:

    “They simple took the political positions that the Christian Democrats held before Merkel took over.”

    Yes, the Christian democrats used to have nostalgia for East Germany, and had no problem with Russia conquering neighboring countries, and wanted to withdraw from the euro. Very amusing.

  9. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    5. September 2016 at 10:43

    “I meant that LBJ crushing Goldwater made the GOP more moderate.”

    -How was the pathetically moderate Nixon of 1960 any different from the same Nixon in 1968, except one campaigned for Goldwater and had, consequently, shed 20 percent of the Black vote as a deadweight?

    “No, I mean more neoliberal.”

    -How was Clinton more moderate than Jimmy Carter?

    “Eventually the GOP accepted Social Security, the minimum wage, the end of the gold standard, etc. That’s due to FDR.”

    -There’s a big difference between “accepted” and “wouldn’t have rejected its initiation if given the chance”. Again, in 1928, plenty of Republicans (concentrated in Wisconsin) gladly supported all these things. That progressive-leaning wing of the Republican Party shrank during the era of FDR.

  10. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    5. September 2016 at 10:48

    BTW, if I lived in Germany and could vote, I would 1. gladly vote for the AfD 2. Leave to a more sensible country.

    And I recommend you all vote for Trump in these great United States. I did in the primary and certainly will in the general. No better leader exists for our times.

  11. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    5. September 2016 at 12:23

    Eastalgia they took from the Communist Party of Germany (called “The Left”) and also from the Social Democrats. And playing down expansive dictators like Putin and Erdogan is hardly a sad AfD sport alone. If you want to have real experts in this kind of sport as Merkel and Obama, or the German Social Democrats, or the French Social Democrats, and so on.

    But good that you mention Putin again. Putin’s invasions and the AfD are both signs of weak leadership. Merkel is a weak politician, exactly like Obama. That’s why things turned out as they did. It should not have happened but in times of weak leadership it’s not surprising that things played out this way. Too many mistakes have been made.

    It’s the same thing as with NGDP level targeting. You explained that quite well several posts ago. Something along the lines of: When Putin invades Ukraine he needs to know beforehand that he should not do it because the consequences will be A) disastrous or B) unpredictable.

    Category A would be a politician like Churchill, Eisenhower, Reagan or maybe even Kennedy. Category B would be a politician like Trump. Politicians from category A work quite good as deterrence. Category B might work as well because they are considered mad and therefore unpredictable. Merkel and Obama are neither category. They are category C) Weak leadership. That’s why Putin had to assume that not too much would happen when he invaded Ukraine (or Syria), and that’s exactly why he did it.

    With the AfD it’s quite similar: Merkel should have just stuck with the well-known Christian Democratic principles established by people like Adenauer, Strauß and Kohl but she left those principles (for example last year in August when she went completely mad and ordered Eastern European countries to let over 1 million people through when they wanted the opposite). That’s leaving core principles (and the rule of Law btw). People don’t understand actions like that, they get afraid and confused, they lose all their trust, trust that can not be regained so easily, and so the AfD could bloom. The AfD was basically dead around the first half of 2015 but Merkel revived them. It’s her mistake and her mistake alone. And the reason for all this is what again? Weak leadership. Very weak leadership.

  12. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    5. September 2016 at 12:32


    BTW, if I lived in Germany and could vote, I would 1. gladly vote for the AfD 2. Leave to a more sensible country.

    Thank you.

    1) Of course you would. Most GOP voters would. Seen from the GOP European parties like the AfD are still more on the left. In the US the AfD would not stand out.

    2) There might be better countries of course but as a “native” it’s still very hard to leave your homeland. I’m not able to this at the moment.

  13. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    5. September 2016 at 13:33

    Yes, I assume that if the conservative party moves left, it becomes more moderate. If the progressive party moves right, it becomes more moderate.

    The parties prior to 1964 were distinguished by a number of overlapping factors: the family history of their adherents, the immigration wave of their adherents, the region of residence of their adherents, the social class of their adherents. This had some implications for the resultant of certain vectors within the parties, but the parties were not distinguished much by policy stances. Within group differences exceeded between group differences. It was only by 1994 that they were fully distinct re policy stances on the federal level.

    Repairing to E. Harding, the Republican Party handed the nomination to Richard Nixon on a platter in 1960. He had only ineffectual opposition in 1968 and won every primary bar Massachusetts. He was handed the nomination again in 1972. The man was always an opportunist, but to the degree that he had policy preferences, he was a good deal more in tune with Rockefeller than Reagan (it’s just that the two men were personal rivals who hated each other quite cordially). Spiro Agnew was a protege of Theodore McKeldin in Maryland and went to the 1964 Republican convention as McKeldin’s second. Both were Rockefeller delegates. Nixon’s daughter’s been making a mild irritant of herself in recent years tossing cash into the Obama campaign kitty.

    Repairing to the period running from 1932 to 1952, the GOP groped for a response to the New Deal in federal politics. They nominated in 1936 a man who was intending to get out of politics and essentially threw the election; to the extent that he had a factional affiliation, it was to the Plains-state progressive wing. In 1940, 1944, and 1948 they nominated mugwump liberals (midwest in origin, living and working in New York). In 1952 and 1956, they nominated a man who might be described as ‘dispositionally conservative’ but had no domestic policy objectives at all.

  14. Gravatar of Gary Anderson Gary Anderson
    5. September 2016 at 13:45

    The Republicans have spent their latter years falling into the Whig mistake. They were always the party of the rich but were more inclusive.

    Now they hate Muslims and blacks and are not shy about it. They hate public school teachers too. The Dems even got on the charter school bandwagon, out of greed.

    My parents lived through the Great Depression. Will Rogers and FDR were heroes, and the Republicans made fools out of themselves trying to change FDR’s place in history.

  15. Gravatar of David R. Henderson David R. Henderson
    5. September 2016 at 13:57

    @Scott Sumner,
    You wrote:
    Yes, I assume that if the conservative party moves left, it becomes more moderate. If the progressive party moves right, it becomes more moderate.

    Thanks for clarifying. You and I have a very different view of “moderate.” Recall that Norman Thomas, when asked by reporters in 1956 why he wasn’t running for President after having done so since 1932, answered that the Republicans had accepted all of the major planks of his 1932 Socialist Party platform.

  16. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    5. September 2016 at 15:22

    David, If you call the Republicans “socialists”, then language loses a lot of its meaning. “Moderate” is a relative concept, and what is considered moderate in 1956 is radically different from what is considered moderate in 1932.

  17. Gravatar of Brian Donohue Brian Donohue
    5. September 2016 at 15:51

    Would you be such a saber-rattling anti-Russkie if it weren’t for Trump? That view strikes me as out of character for you.

  18. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    5. September 2016 at 15:59

    It is orthodoxy to label a movement “self determination” when we agree, or “nationalism” when we disagree.

    Trump is a lulu. But then, George Bush jr. dressed up in military costumes, paraded on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, and declared “Mission Accomplished.” Did Bush bring Iraq and Afghanistan into the American Empire? At fantastic expense? With a mercenary military?

    Putin strikes me as a thug. On the other hand it is the United States that maintains a global Military Empire and not Russia.

    Strange fact: President Xi may be the worst major nation leader, and yet very little media condemnation follows.

    We are worried abour Don “Cupcakes” Trump? Are you aware of what Xi is actually doing to 1.2 billion people?

  19. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    5. September 2016 at 16:26

    “Would you be such a saber-rattling anti-Russkie if it weren’t for Trump?”

    -Yes; I think. He trusts the filthy lying stooges at The Economist too much.

  20. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    5. September 2016 at 17:52

    Ben, I hereby condemn Putin and Xi. Are you happy now? They are not running for President of the US.

    You always point out how bad Bush was, but I never see you condemn the North Korean leader Kim Il Un, who is worse than Bush was. Do you have a double standard?

    Brian, You said:

    “Would you be such a saber-rattling anti-Russkie if it weren’t for Trump? That view strikes me as out of character for you.”

    I’m about as far from an anti-Russian saber rattler as you’ll find on the internet. I do not favor going to war over the Crimea. All I’ve said is that if Russia attacks us, we should fight back. Do you disagree?

    Harding, Did you see that his royal highness said he’d be so offended by the fact that the staircase that greeted him in China when leaving the plane was not gold plated like his toilet, that he would have turned right around and abandoned the other 19 world leaders, making the US the laughing stock of the world? And BTW, the offensive staircase was actually provided by the US, not China.

    You are supporting a buffoon with delusions of grandeur. He wants to be treated like a King. This is becoming like the Beverly Hillbillies, a stupid guy with no taste who expects people to treat him like royalty. If he becomes president then politics will become a non-stop sitcom. It will make “The Office” look tame by comparison. Trump pulls these stunts almost every day—imagine 4 years of this stuff, nonstop. And then think about the fact that during the campaign he’s trying to appear sane–imagine when he no longer has to hold back.

  21. Gravatar of Chuck Biscuits Chuck Biscuits
    5. September 2016 at 18:13

    It would be amusing to see if the good professor can provide any evidence that Russia has intents to attack the US.

  22. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    5. September 2016 at 19:09

    Scott:

    I hereby condemn Jung, although I feel I have soiled my pixels by even mentioning that character.

    Keep fighting Trump. He is a lulu.

    But Trump has not yet doffed a military costume, so is he any worse or better than President Bush jr.?

  23. Gravatar of Gary Anderson Gary Anderson
    5. September 2016 at 20:08

    Lol, the Euro is a mistake, in that it is a currency without a state. That state is coming, IMO. Then it would, I guess, not be a mistake. However, the answer to the flawed Euro is not Xenophopia. That is just ridiculous. What happened to mutual respect and the Peace of Westfalia?

    By the way, a bold prediction was made. Global Economic Intersection shows that it is estimated the natural rate, R*, will be 1 percent in TEN YEARS. Lol: http://www.talkmarkets.com/content/us-markets/projecting-the-long-run-natural-rate-of-interest?post=105341&uid=4798

    Models make me nauseous, especially since we can see without them that interest rates are headed south, despite the Fed’s “bold” efforts to raise rates a measly .25 percent.

  24. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    6. September 2016 at 00:22

    Scott, good points.

    More broadly, this issue links back to your previous post about rents. IP rents are important to companies. But for individuals, it is rents from origin, social class, and educational signalling that count. Those are the individual correlates to corporate and national rents from IP etc. Globalisation and free competition breaks up the rental income you can achieve simply by being from somewhere, or having some degree.

    Hence the craze on occupational licensing in the US, a terrible idea popular in Europe, and that has a lot to do with European un-competitiveness. Licensing protects jobs from competition. Once you have your license you have your rental income. Sometimes quite literally – in Europe in many professions rent licensees that are legally required. e.g. restaurants, people “rent” a chef with the proper license to run their restaurant. The chef is never there, of course, but legally required. He literally draws a rent from his cheffery diploma. Same for the manager.

    And hence nationalism in Europe, since even occupational licensing isn’t any longer keeping those Eastern European plumbers out of Western European jobs that are deemed “our” “British” or whatever, jobs. Not under the freedom of labor that the EU tried to achieve (not that it got very far in this but this is what it tried to do).

    The entire European right / Trumpish populism, to me, is impotent rage over the loss of entitlements. Rage over the threat that it may not be enough anymore to be from somewhere to make a living or to get a subsidy.

    It used to be enough to be a GDR citizen to get a job. A lousy one maybe but you had it for life as long as you shut your mouth. It used to be enough to be from Detroit to get an auto job. It used to be enough to be American to get political respect, and a nice managerial position (given you made it to the relevant degree). Not anymore. Hence the rage – “we were told this was OURS”.

    BTW, food for thought – meritocracy in many ways is also a fight for unearned entitlement. Once you make it through the hoops of the selection process, competition ends. Your position is guaranteed. That’s how the system works in the French public service, and in much of Asia for much of everything.

  25. Gravatar of Brian Donohue Brian Donohue
    6. September 2016 at 03:16

    Scott,

    I agree with your comment on Russia. Perhaps I was reading too much into the term “soft on Russia” comment, which you definitely imply is a bad thing, so I was trying to imagine what your preferred ‘tough on Russia’ policy would be.

    Russia’s interest in retaining influence among its neighbors is natural. China too. America too.

  26. Gravatar of collin collin
    6. September 2016 at 09:07

    How do you do you know HRC or Trump will be blamed? Remember the Clinton first two years after Ross Perot run? That one turned around quickly after 1994. Maybe the slow rebound from the Great Recession will be the longest growth cycle ever and labor markets are getting tighter. (Remember the two longest was the Post-1990 S&L Recession which was the dress reversal for The Great Recession so the growth cycle could be 12 years.) The nation could be the verge of another golden era similar to US 1948-1973 or 1983 – 2007.

    Also, please name a nation that is doing really superior to the United States right now? Peru?, China?, India?, Vietnam?….

  27. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 09:53

    But then, George Bush jr. dressed up in military costumes, paraded on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, and declared “Mission Accomplished.”

    The ‘declaration’ was a sign placed in the background by carrier personnel coincident with the president’s visit. The carrier’s discrete mission was at an end. The president was wearing a business suit during his remarks.

    You can find photographs of the president in utilitarian airman’s garments worn when he’d been on aircraft or was preparing to go on aircraft. You’re not going to find a photo of him in dress blues.

  28. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 10:05

    was the Post-1990 S&L Recession which was the dress reversal for The Great Recession

    Measured quarter to quarter, the rate at which goods and services were produced declined by 1.32% during the former recession, and by 4.24% during the latter. The two recessions were 18 years apart. The bust financial institutions in the former recession were deposits-and-loans savings banks of modest dimensions and one securities firm of note (Drexel). Those in the latter were a pair of massive secondary mortgage pools, universal banks, securities firms with multiple lines of business, a large insurance company, one large commercial bank, and one large savings bank. Washington Mutual was the only notable failing firm in 2008 which resembled in schematic outline the failing firms of 1991 (bar that it was larger by many multiples).

  29. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 10:08

    This is becoming like the Beverly Hillbillies, a stupid guy with no taste who expects people to treat him like royalty.

    Which Beverly Hillbilles character was that?

  30. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 10:13

    Harding, Did you see that his royal highness said he’d be so offended by the fact that the staircase that greeted him in China when leaving the plane was not gold plated like his toilet, that he would have turned right around and abandoned the other 19 world leaders, making the US the laughing stock of the world? And BTW, the offensive staircase was actually provided by the US, not China.

    Harry Truman presided over the most consequential diplomacy of the postwar era. He traveled abroad 3x in 8 years in office: once for a courtesy visit to Mexico (where he’d traveled before while in Congress), once for a courtesy visit to Canada (to a location which can be reached by car), and one for the Potsdam Conference.

    What’s BO doing at the G-20 conference? Why is he traveling at all. With what we’ve made of the Presidency, his travel requires four planeloads full of personnel and equipment. He should use the bloody telephone. There has been one on the President’s desk since 1929.

    So, he we have an event, or, perhaps, a Boorsteinian pseudo-event. The President of the United States is treated with contempt for show at an ‘event’ that’s all about show. That’s what ‘smart diplomacy’ gets you.

  31. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 10:16

    Are you aware of what Xi is actually doing to 1.2 billion people?

    He’s likely as benign with his own as has been anyone in his position the last century. The problem with China is the firepower it might be able to deploy given certain contingencies.

  32. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 10:21

    2. And suppose the core supporters of this candidate were not in affluent Republican areas, but rather in poor white areas like West Virginia. And suppose those poor whites of West Virginia were freaking out about immigration, despite the fact that hardly any immigrants want to live in their poor, backward state.

    ‘Freaking out’? You’re projecting.

    Strange as it may seem to you, there are people who do not adhere to the cosmopolitan schemes of academic economists and who aren’t persuaded to have contempt for themselves because you have contempt for them.

  33. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 10:23

    Did Bush bring Iraq and Afghanistan into the American Empire?

    There is no empire.

    With a mercenary military?

    Aren’t you sweet? You work without compensation, I take it?

  34. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 10:39

    Actually, yes. We did not annex Iraq.

    It’s populated with Arabs who speak vernaculars on the Mesopotamian spectrum leavened with Kurds. And it’s a very difficult set of territories to govern. There haven’t been many contiguous blocs of territory held as overseas dependencies which were more populous than Iraq (British India, the Dutch East Indies, the British territories running from Southern Africa to the Nile Valley; and the French territorial bloc in Equatorial Africa, West Africa, and the Maghreb).

    The Crimea has about 2 million people, (fewer than Queens), is populated largely with ethnic Russians, and does not harbor many people who blow themselves and others up.

  35. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 11:10

    The nation could be the verge of another golden era similar to US 1948-1973 or 1983 – 2007..

    You had comparatively rapid growth from 1947 to 1970, and the labor market was not experiencing the sclerosis you saw later on. You also had the Cold War, a pair of regional wars more sanguinary (by a factor of about 10) than Iraq and Afghanistan, military conscription, quite elevated military expenditures, five recessions, escalating ratios of public expenditure to domestic product, flourishing juvenile delinquency followed by flourishing adult street crime, escalating inflation at the terminus of the period, and an explosion of divorce at the terminus of this period.

  36. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    6. September 2016 at 11:13

    The entire European right / Trumpish populism, to me, is impotent rage over the loss of entitlements. Rage over the threat that it may not be enough anymore to be from somewhere to make a living or to get a subsidy.

    Or, perhaps it’s irritation on the part of the public that the elites are importing foreigners to displace them and then impugning the character of people when they object.

  37. Gravatar of Chuck Biscuits Chuck Biscuits
    6. September 2016 at 11:34

    @Art Deco

    You really don’t have much of a life, do you?

  38. Gravatar of Scott Sumner Scott Sumner
    6. September 2016 at 14:58

    Chuck, I never said anything about Russia attacking the US, I talked about them attacking “us”. An attack on any single NATO member is an attack on all. Thus “us” is a NATO member.

    I know that a lot of people don’t like NATO, but until Trump pulls us out we are required to fulfill the treaty’s obligations.

  39. Gravatar of Scott Sumner Scott Sumner
    6. September 2016 at 15:04

    mbka, Good comment.

    Brian, I definitely think it’s a “bad thing” that Trump praises Putin, and excuses his crimes. That doesn’t mean I want the US to go to war with Russia. But I’d rather our president either keep his mouth shut about Russia, or criticize their actions.

  40. Gravatar of AbsoluteZero AbsoluteZero
    6. September 2016 at 15:25

    Scott,
    Sorry if this is technically off-topic.

    From the SCMP: “G20 ‘staircase snub’ for Obama was United States’ decision, reveals Chinese official”
    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl…snub-obama-was-united-states-decision-reveals

  41. Gravatar of AbsoluteZero AbsoluteZero
    6. September 2016 at 15:26

    Scott,
    Sorry, here’s the correct link:
    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2014484/staircase-snub-obama-was-united-states-decision-reveals

  42. Gravatar of Thiago Ribeiro Thiago Ribeiro
    6. September 2016 at 16:07

    “The next president will be a failed president, and will be rejected by the voters in 2020. The election you really want to win is the 2020 election, which will offer the possibility of dramatic policy reform.”

    What was the last time America had a non-failed president (or by “failed president” we are to automatically understand not someone who fails at being a president but rather someone who fails at being reelected)? America seems to have stolen Brazil’s “countey of the future” shtick.

  43. Gravatar of Chuck Biscuits Chuck Biscuits
    6. September 2016 at 18:37

    Scott, you are an ignoramus and a liar. Tell us, then, what NATO countries did Russia threaten to attack? And I don’t mean Baltic and Polish paranoia. These countries are in fact not committing sufficient resources to their own national defense. Trump is actually correct on the larger issue, NATO treaty obligations do not commit the US to wage war on behalf of another member, suchaction would have to be in accord with the US Constitution, as the treaty clearly states:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/25/trump-half-right-nato-doesnt-obligate-us-president/

    If you really think middle Americans (whom you clearly despise) would support war in defense of the Baltics or Poland, you are even more out-of-touch than I thought.

  44. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    6. September 2016 at 19:06

    Deco,

    “Or, perhaps it’s irritation on the part of the public that the elites are importing foreigners to displace them and then impugning the character of people when they object.”

    I am so tired of these memes. This has been boilerplate of the European populist right since at least 25 years. The “elites” in Europe are politicians of an often working class background. The “elite” meme is a stock part of populist campaign to delegitimize the established institutions. They took a leaf from the Nazi playbook here. Part 2 of the Nazi playbook btw is “the press is lying to you, the official statistics are bogus”. This part comes in when you point out that the numbers don’t support the populist claims, example, 1 million Syrians will be hard pressed to “replace” hundreds of millions of EU locals. We had hundreds of thousands of Bosnians come in in the 90s too and most went home. Unemployment isn’t actually at 50% either. etc. But once you believe “the press is lying to us”, who are you going to believe, Trump/Marine, or yer own lyin’ eyes?

    All the above are destructive fear-based politics. They are effective for winning elections. Fear deactivates rational thinking and makes people rally behind a cause. But they’re not great for constructive governing. They lead to Argentina kind of politics.

    List,

    at the time you didn’t so much as predict where the AfD would go, you said they had already _had_ a huge success, when they hadn’t. Now they just did, albeit in a tiny and backward Land with hardly any foreigners in it. That speaks more of the power of fear and hysteria than of a reaction to an actual problem.

  45. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    6. September 2016 at 19:14

    “excuses his crimes”

    -If you haven’t heard, Sumner, Putin isn’t the President of the United States. His “crimes” if they occurred (I doubt it) are not matters for people like Hillary Rotten Clinton to deal with.

    “we are required to fulfill the treaty’s obligations.”

    -By who and what army?

    “An attack on any single NATO member is an attack on all.”

    -Sometimes it is. Often it isn’t.

    “But I’d rather our president either keep his mouth shut about Russia, or criticize their actions.”

    -Why? Putin has an 80% approval rating. Obama has a 52% approval rating. Who’s Obama (or Her, or Trump) to judge negatively on Putin, a leader clearly wiser than any of them? Trump is right to praise Putin, and Russian TV is right to praise Trump.

    America is closer to being Made Great Again than ever before this decade.

  46. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    6. September 2016 at 19:20

    “1 million Syrians will be hard pressed to “replace” hundreds of millions of EU locals.”

    -1 million per year is more than the number of German babies who are born in Germany per year. Yes, replacement, given reckless immigration policy, is possible.

    “All the above are destructive fear-based politics. They are effective for winning elections. Fear deactivates rational thinking and makes people rally behind a cause. But they’re not great for constructive governing. They lead to Argentina kind of politics.”

    -Just ask Hillary Clinton.

    “The “elite” meme is a stock part of populist campaign to delegitimize the established institutions.”

    -Exactly. The quicker they are delegitimized, the better the chances of change for the better.

  47. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    6. September 2016 at 19:22

    Also, hope Norbert Hofer wins in October. Sends a signal to the l33ts.

  48. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    6. September 2016 at 19:27

    “The quicker they are delegitimized, the better the chances of change for the better.”

    Umm. The quicker our Western institutions are delegitimized, starting with the Magna Carta presumably, the quicker the resulting vacuum is filled with whatever scum is presenting themselves as the Messiah. This is how religious and political conversion works: create massive pain, destroy old belief system, then fill the void with your brand new savior. From cults to the Nazis, always the same system.

  49. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    6. September 2016 at 20:06

    Harding,

    Hofer, since you mention Austria. Same playbook: Hofer’s party delegitimized the elections by bringing up a procedural issue that likely had no effect on the outcome, and that had been was signed off by Hofer’s own party delegates. Never mind Hofer’s delegates effectively committed perjury by first signing off on legitimacy and then retracting after they lost the elections. But who cares – the typical Hofer supporter doesn’t think that far.

    Austria is a nice example too because here, in Carinthia, Hofer’s FPOe, an AfD-like party, actually governed a province. That was under the then-grand leader Joerg Haider, previous Messiah, now deceased in a self inflicted car incident in what seemed like the aftermath of an altercation with his boyfriend in a club. Result: fantastical corruption mixed with epic incompetence. The “elites” were replaced by next door scum. Years later they are still working out the court cases.

    Carinthia has now gone back to the socialists. Socialism, national socialism, people seem to switch easily between the two.

  50. Gravatar of Larry Larry
    6. September 2016 at 22:26

    “If I were a Republican (I’m not), I’d pray for Hillary to be defending her record in 2020”

    How have we come to this point, where bank shots are all we have to hope for?

  51. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 05:20

    by bringing up a procedural issue that likely had no effect on the outcome,

    Buy my bridge.

  52. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 05:23

    I am so tired of these memes.

    That’s because the memes are true and you don’t have a response which does not incorporate deception. All the spinning is tiring you out.

  53. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 05:27

    The quicker our Western institutions are delegitimized, starting with the Magna Carta presumably, the quicker the resulting vacuum is filled with whatever scum is presenting themselves as the Messiah.

    The political cartels currently governing the federal government in this country, governing Germany, governing Britain, have little to do with Truman, Churchill, and Adenauer, much less with King John. The advent (or recrudescence) of a cosmopolitan elite who despise their own countrymen is a post-war phenomenon.

  54. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 05:31

    What was the last time America had a non-failed president (or by “failed president” we are to automatically understand not someone who fails at being a president but rather someone who fails at being reelected)? America seems to have stolen Brazil’s “countey of the future” shtick.

    Except that we have a per capita income about 3x yours, have maintained our relative position vis a vis Japan and Europe, have 1/3 the number of homicides, and are not a public health catastrophe.

  55. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 05:32

    From cults to the Nazis, always the same system.

    Quack quack down comes Groucho’s duck.

  56. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    7. September 2016 at 07:53

    Deco,

    the Austrian election issue was: mail-in votes that were legally bound to be counted one day after election day were prepared for counting on the evening of election day itself (by stacking regular vs. irregular envelopes, notably – no counts occurred that day). Next day, some observers skipped work. Yet, all parties’ observers signed off that the vote was regular.

    The entire sloppy non observance of protocol seems to date back decades worth of voting w/o contestations. This time, once the result was in and Hofer had narrowly lost, due to mail in votes, the far right disputed the result and their observers recanted their signed declarations that the vote had been regular. The constitutional court declared that protocol was indeed not followed, the actual vote count was not the main issue. The vote now has to be repeated. Cui bono? You tell me.

    “a cosmopolitan elite who despise their own countrymen ”
    How to you come to this conclusion? Besides, some logic please. A cosmopolitan, if s/he truly is one, wouldn’t have countrymen, would they? Only countries of origin, countries of residence, and countries of current passport. The term “country” to them would refer to an administrative unit of world territory. That’s what it means to me. The nation state is not that old, or that brilliant an idea.

    “Quack quack down comes Groucho’s duck.”

    For a guy vociferating against his supposed cosmopolitan overlords, you got some supremely smug superiority complex going here.

  57. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 08:17

    the Austrian election issue was: mail-in votes that were legally bound to be counted one day after election day were prepared for counting on the evening of election day itself (by stacking regular vs. irregular envelopes, notably – no counts occurred that day). Next day, some observers skipped work. Yet, all parties’ observers signed off that the vote was regular.

    No, the that was the formal issue. The substantive issue is that the disjunction between the postal ballots and the machine counts is not credible.

  58. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 08:17

    For a guy vociferating against his supposed cosmopolitan overlords, you got some supremely smug superiority complex going here.

    That was a reference to a game show, knucklehead.

  59. Gravatar of msgkings msgkings
    7. September 2016 at 08:19

    @mbka:

    Art has a good thesaurus but he’s such a hypocrite it’s hard to accept his opinions. Trump is just great to this guy, but if he were a Dem he’d be savaging him. Art despises plenty of his own countrymen, but it’s terrible when the other side does it.

    He’s safely ignored.

  60. Gravatar of collin collin
    7. September 2016 at 08:51

    Art,

    The political cartels currently governing the federal government in this country, governing Germany, governing Britain, have little to do with Truman, Churchill, and Adenauer, much less with King John.

    Truman?!? The man was seriously a product of political political machinery more than any post-WW2 President. (In his case it was state politics) More than any other President, he was Party appointed by the Democrats to be Vice-President for President Roosevelt who was given 6 months to live before the 1944 election. (he made it 8 months) In terms of politic cartel, that has always been true.

  61. Gravatar of Anon39 Anon39
    7. September 2016 at 10:48

    Sweet Jesus these posts bring out the crazies.

  62. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    7. September 2016 at 10:55


    …to delegitimize the established institutions. They took a leaf from the Nazi playbook here.
    […]
    Part 2 of the Nazi playbook…
    […]
    Same playbook: Hofer’s party delegitimized the elections

    Yes, yes, it’s all in the big “Nazi playbook”. You really figured it out, congratulations. You and your stupid con theories. You aren’t any better than all the other con theorists. What will you tell us next? That the Protocols of Zion are real and that Pepsi is a Zionist acronym?

    The Constitutional Court of Austria ruled that the election was irregular and needs to be re-held and you are mumbling about “delegitimizing” democratic institutions. How very ironic. You are just a hate-filled partisan hack, that’s all.

    I bet the Constitutional Court of Austria was bought by AfD and FPÖ people. These people are incompetent stupid backward hillbillies and very few – according to your great theories – but oh boy they *somehow* gain more and more influence.

    It’s not really clear how very few and totally incompetent hillbillies can achieve such a thing, especially since the elite (according to you) is so very competent, but never mind, your con theories don’t have to follow any reason or logic they just have to fulfill your imagination.

  63. Gravatar of T T
    7. September 2016 at 11:10

    –mbka 6. September 2016 at 19:27

    Maoism is probably the gold standard (ha) of delegitimization, followed by Stalinism, but national socialism was successful enough to be widely imitated in various flavors in the Mideast. America, deliberately established as a fractious system of competing institutions each duly suspicious of its peers, has traditionally been relatively immune to this sort of madness, but “paranoia populism” will always have some limited appeal.

  64. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 11:58

    Truman?!? The man was seriously a product of political political machinery more than any post-WW2 President. (In his case it was state politics) More than any other President, he was Party appointed by the Democrats to be Vice-President for President Roosevelt who was given 6 months to live before the 1944 election. (he made it 8 months) In terms of politic cartel, that has always been true.

    Truman cut his teeth in Kansas City ward club politics, of which nothing remotely similar exists today.

    Roosevelt died of a stroke. Where did you get the idea in your head that that sort of thing could be predicted with any precision today, much less in 1944? “Six months to live” is the sort of thing told cancer patients (and doctors have a high error rate with that); Roosevelt did not have cancer and it was unusual for physicians at the time to speak to cancer patients directly about their condition.

  65. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    7. September 2016 at 13:20

    @Art Deco
    Not true at all. Roosevelt was a chain-smoker and had been in declining health since at least 1940. By 1944 he was so fatigued that even a non-professional could see it. In March 1944 he was diagnosed with very high blood pressure, atherosclerosis, coronary artery disease, angina pectoris and congestive heart failure. Other sources add seizures and TIAs. His physicians ordered Roosevelt to rest but of course he didn’t really do it. In February 1945 his meeting with Churchill and Stalin went down into the history books as “The Sick Man at Yalta”. The physician of Churchill just looked at Roosevelt from afar and told Churchill that Roosevelt was “a dying man”. So yes, everybody who wasn’t totally blind new what was coming. Just look at the famous pictures. You must be blind not to see it.

    Of course officially his physicians told the press Roosevelt’s health was “perfectly OK” and that “there are absolutely no organic difficulties” at all. Reports of his declining health may have also been quashed by Roosevelt personally, he basically controlled the press at the times.

    The behavior of the press and the seizures remind me of Hillary by the way. I bet she won’t make four whole years if she is elected, but of course her health is “perfectly OK” – until she drops down dead from one of her seizures and TIAs. I don’t think she dies though, there was some progress in the last 70 years, but she will definitely ruin her health.

  66. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 14:15

    He was examined in 1944 by a surgeon named Frank Lahey who offered an opinion that he might be ‘on the verge of’ ‘heart failure’.

    http://www.whav.net/cms/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/lahey-memo.jpg

    There’s some distance between that qualified diagnosis and a precise assessment that he had ‘six months to live’.

  67. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    7. September 2016 at 14:29

    Don’t get hung up on the six months. Since at least Yalta (at the very latest) everybody in the inner circles with half a brain knew and saw that he was a dying man.

  68. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    7. September 2016 at 14:54

    Three more general points about the original post by ssumner.

    1) Low (or falling) interest rates are a sign that money has been tight. Low (or falling) ratings of (all) the established elite politicians and their parties are a sign that many people are very unhappy with recent policies. The explosion of totally new parties that contain mainly new faces and non-professionals is another sure sign. It’s hard to understand why some people get the first observations but not the second. It seems to be because of politics. The second issue is political so they don’t analyze anymore and shut their brains down.

    2) In America AfD people would be part of the GOP. They wouldn’t even stand out but count as moderate.

    3) Trump is not winning because opening borders for over a million people by the hands of a mad President is not an issue in the US. The whole asylum seeker problem is not an issue. Even immigration is not really an issue. The US borders are hermetically sealed already. The US is a fortress and even the most left-wing politicians (Obama; Bernie, Hillary) are totally against the chaotic European style immigration. The left-wing politicians even deport thousands of people, sometimes even more than the conservatives. And they got a limit for asylum seekers of 30,000 per year which is incredibly low and no one is really questioning this. Also: Asylum seekers in the US have to work from day one. All this in Europe and the rise of the right-wing parties would be over in no time. But as long as Europe does not copy the border control and immigration control system of the US the rise of the new parties will continue.

  69. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 16:34

    Don’t get hung up on the six months.

    Why not? It was the other fellow’s contention and the time frame was an architectural feature of the point he was trying to make.

    Since at least Yalta (at the very latest) everybody in the inner circles with half a brain knew and saw that he was a dying man.

    In 1944, a man of 62 would have been quite aware of his mortality. Same deal today, for the most part. (Eleanor’s uncle Teddy died at 60, Calvin Coolidge died at 61, Woodrow Wilson was in ruined condition from the age of 63, Roosevelt’s consigliere Harry Hopkins died at 56).

  70. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    7. September 2016 at 16:36

    The US borders are hermetically sealed already.

    No clue how you got that idea.

    The left-wing politicians even deport thousands of people

    Deportation theater. It’s catch and release.

  71. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    7. September 2016 at 18:11

    List,

    you and Deco must be winning the grand prize for needless detail. All hail Google. It always gives a nice illusion of knowledge.

    As to you your other spews of hate on me, I think you are confusing me with someone else. Elders of Zion?? Wasn’t that this Anderson guy’s department? if memory serves. Or Deco’s, obsessed with those “cosmopolitans”? – No conspiracies here, just good old agit prop on the part of the far right, and so far it’s been working. It’s not hidden, it’s in the open, it’s just hard to take down with democratic means. As all good propaganda, it mixes genuine grievances with fantastic paranoia and adds a scapegoat.

    And, the constitutional court in Austria didn’t look into the election unless prompted by a complaint by the party that benefitted from the annulment. A complaint over practices that party had signed off on for many prior elections.

    All else: you are becoming as bizarro as Harding and Deco, and Thiago in his lesser days.

  72. Gravatar of Gary Anderson Gary Anderson
    7. September 2016 at 21:19

    @Art Deco:

    Of course there is a UK/US/Israeli empire. It is the new Roman Empire. The sun never sets on it and its financial center, the Square Mile, is guarded by two statues in Roman uniforms, called Gog and Magog.

    The New Testament talks about a kingdome on which the sun doesn’t set, and about Gog and Magog.

    Add it up.

    @Scott Sumner, Russia has been surrounded by regime change neocons for years now. Russia is in defensive mode and we are the aggressors. We paid for the coup in the Ukraine. It isn’t even a secret.

    Having said that, Trump borrowing from China and/or Russia is a concern. He could be beholden in the wrong way.

  73. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    8. September 2016 at 05:57


    It always gives a nice illusion of knowledge.

    You still need to know where to look and what to look for. There’s no point in having all the details in your head.


    And, the constitutional court in Austria didn’t look into the election unless prompted by a complaint by the party that benefitted from the annulment.

    Everything you write is just childish. Of course a libelant benefits if the Constitutional court rules that he is in the right. That’s the point of going to court, that’s the point of a democratic system based on the rule of law. You tried to paint the rule of law as delegitimizing Austrian democracy coming out right of Nazi playbook.

    Furthermore you got no theory whatsoever why all these new parties rise in Europe expect con theories, propaganda, nazi playbooks and of course that all those voters must be stupid hillbillies. That is hardly a good explanation for anything, it’s just hate theories with a lot of foam at the mouth.

    @ArtDeco
    Compared to Europe the US borders are sealed. It’s like I said, Asylum seekers are not even an issue in the US. There’s a limit of 30,000 each year and no party tries to change that so far. Regarding Syria the US government talked about 10,000 Syrians that could be taken in but even this little number was never reached by far. In Europe we talk about millions of asylum seekers, that’s quite a difference. There are many differences between Europe and the US regarding this topic and I think these differences explain to a large extent the different political situations in both regions.

  74. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    8. September 2016 at 06:22

    Or Deco’s, obsessed with those “cosmopolitans”? –

    The people I’m ‘obsessed’ with – essentially professional managerial types in gatekeeper positions, especially lawyers – make public policy in this country, and they make it in defiance of public preferences (as well as abusing their cultural adversaries in the process). It does not bother the moderator because he gets what he and his friends want and they don’t care about community control.

  75. Gravatar of mbka mbka
    8. September 2016 at 07:25

    List,

    you’re not even reading what I write, you keep harping on the same points you misunderstood before, so a dialogue is hopeless.

    Deco,

    obsessed with a very narrow type then.

    Well I can make sense of neither of your single-issue fanaticisms. I used to find the Western political class marginally dull. Now that we see the rise of lunatic alternatives to that, I have the greatest sympathies for the old style, dull, but professional politician. Politics is not entertainment. It is about complex trade-offs between many players, all of which have some power. It ought to be treading lightly. It ought to be as sexy as banking.

    You’re right on one thing List, I have no good global explanation for the rise of politics as blood sport. It happens in countries world wide, not just in the “West” or America, regardless of which end of globalization they’re at or whether or not they have refugees. America for once doesn’t have any, right again here. But there is now a huge appeal, globally, for the politician as the elephant in the China shop.

    I know I can’t convince you of my positions. I just don’t want this comment section completely overrun by extremists like you. You are not the majority, as of now, and I hope the current fever will pass.

  76. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    8. September 2016 at 08:36

    Well I can make sense of neither of your single-issue fanaticisms.

    The terms ‘single-issue’ and ‘fanaticism’ do not mean what you fancy they mean.

    Politics is not entertainment. It is about complex trade-offs between many players,

    The players are rent-seeking sectoral lobbies or sectors subject to extortion.

    That aside, while our political class is tossing candy at Mr. Donohue of the Chamber of Commerce, the tax code’s a shambles, the civil service recruitment and promotion is a shambles, anti-discrimination law breeds one scandal after another, the Departments of Housing and Education generate one scandal after another yet go on and on, the judiciary and their co-conspirators are out of control, and they’ve failed for 40 years to build the infrastructure necessary to control the border, or to concoct a sensible means of financing medical care, or to put Social Security on an actuarially sound footing, or to repair our horrible higher educaiton system in any way, or, well, you name it.

  77. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    8. September 2016 at 11:38

    I have no problem when you stop writing to me. But when you write something write more unemotional arguments with some substance instead of constant ad hominem attacks saying that people who don’t agree with you don’t understand, are stupid, are extremist, are hillbillies, have a disease, are Nazis and whatever.


    You’re right on one thing List,

    See we can agree on something. You even managed to write some unemotional substance after that, unfortunately just to switch into “You are an idiotic extremist with a fever”-mode right again.

    It also makes no sense to me that you are saying a dialogue is hopeless, meaning that you stop addressing me (I took it as a promise), just to address me again after a few sentences. Make up your mind.

  78. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    9. September 2016 at 09:53

    Thiago, Reagan, Clinton and Obama were not failed presidents.

    Chuck, Yup, I’m even more out of touch than you thought.

    It doesn’t matter what “middle Americans” think, they will do as they are told. Do you think middle Americans favored attacking Iraq the day after 9/11? The experts told them it was needed.

    Larry, You asked:

    “How have we come to this point, where bank shots are all we have to hope for?”

    Trump?

  79. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    9. September 2016 at 10:50

    It doesn’t matter what “middle Americans” think,

    Sometimes, you’re just self-indicting.

  80. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    9. September 2016 at 11:49

    I knew that some American politicians (Bush II, Trump, Obama, Hillary) can be very ignorant about geography and foreign policy but I was a bit surprised when Johnson thought he had to join the ranks:

    Barnicle: “What would you do if you were elected about Aleppo?”
    Johnson: “About…?”
    Barnicle: “Aleppo”
    Johnson: “And what is Aleppo?”
    Barnicle: “You’re kidding.”
    Johnson: “No.”

    edition.cnn.com/2016/09/08/opinions/johnson-aleppo-question-ghitis/

    Go Gary, you are the very best guy for this job.
    And don’t forget to bring your Nazi wedding cakes.

  81. Gravatar of Chuck Biscuits Chuck Biscuits
    10. September 2016 at 12:43

    Well, I guess we know now why Sumner’s so convinced expected NGDP targeting will work: the lab rats will all just fall in line. I hope all those “undocumented workers” build sturdy barricades around that ivory tower, my general impression is their construction work is rather shoddy. You get what you pay for, you know.

    But anyway, I take it your answer is no, you have NO evidence that Russia is threatening to attack any NATO countries.

  82. Gravatar of David R. Henderson David R. Henderson
    10. September 2016 at 14:44

    Scott,
    I just saw your answer. You misstated my view. You wrote:
    David, If you call the Republicans “socialists”, then language loses a lot of its meaning.

    DRH: You are right that calling Republicans “socialists” causes language to lose a lot of its meaning. Fortunately, I did not call them socialists. I stated that the Republicans by 1956 had adopted as their own all the policy positions in the 1932 Socialist Party platform. That’s simply a fact.

  83. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    10. September 2016 at 14:56

    Christian, The first few times you commented here you actually tried to sound half way intelligent.

    Chuck, You said:

    “But anyway, I take it your answer is no, you have NO evidence that Russia is threatening to attack any NATO countries.”

    Never said it did. But I do have evidence that some Nato countries are former members of the Soviet Union. And I do have evidence that some of those members have large Russian minorities. And I do have evidence that Russia has invaded several of the former members of the Soviet Union (in one case by proxy). So it’s not a stretch to think there’s at least a slight risk of them invading Estonia. Even I would not claim it’s over 50-50.

    David, Sorry if I misunderstood you. I guess I don’t understand what point you were trying to make by comparing the GOP of 1956 to the socialists of 1932. How does it relate to my claim that they are the more conservative party, and that when they move to the left they are becoming more moderate?

    I honestly can’t see what point you were trying to make. It seemed to me you were somehow contesting my claim that they become more moderate.

  84. Gravatar of Chuck Biscuits Chuck Biscuits
    10. September 2016 at 20:06

    Russia’s invaded “several” former Soviet bloc countries? Who? You mean Crimea? That was in the context of US-sponsored interference in the Ukraine, and at any rate there was some popular support for the action. Maybe you mean Georgia? Even the usually pliant EU acknowledged in their investigation that Georgia started that conflict (at the behest of the US). So what other “invasions” do you mean? Or are you playing word games, as market monetarists are wont to do?

    BTW, you always take Mexico’s side when they object to US policies towards Mexican nationals in the US, what is your problem with Russia doing the same thing in regards to ethnic Russians in the Baltics? I guess I could also ask, the US and Britain once acceded to Soviet annexation of the Baltics, what’s the issue now?

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