?????????

Here’s Jim Geraghty:

Meet Donald Trump’s new immigration stance, which is to . . . praise how tough President Obama has been on deportations. Huh? What?

“We’re going to obey the existing laws. Now, the existing laws are very strong. The existing laws, the first thing we’re gonna do, if and when I win, is we’re gonna get rid of all of the bad ones. We’ve got gang members, we have killers, we have a lot of bad people that have to get out of this country,” he said on Fox News. “As far as everybody else, we’re going to go through the process. What people don’t know is that Obama got tremendous numbers of people out of the country, Bush the same thing. Lots of people were brought out of the country with the existing laws. Well, I’m gonna do the same thing.”

[Host Bill] O’Reilly then mentioned detention centers, prompting Trump to quickly shoot down the idea of keeping undocumented immigrants in detention centers.

“You don’t have to put them in a detention center,” Trump said.

“I never even heard the term. I’m not gonna put them in a detention center,” he added. “We want to do it in a very humane manner.”

Great news, immigration hawks! Trump will emulate those tough policies of . . . Obama and Bush! Aren’t you thrilled? Haven’t you passionately campaigned for the status quo all these years?

Still on “vacation”, so let’s just have a poll.  What’s funnier:

1.  The fact that Trump has never heard of immigration detention centers.

2.  The fact that he doesn’t know that Obama puts illegals into detention centers.

3.  The fact that Trump has decided to run to the left of Obama on immigration.

4.  The fact that Trumpistas believed that Trump was sincere on immigration.

P.S.  If you see Harding on the street, steer clear.  His head might explode.


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76 Responses to “?????????”

  1. Gravatar of Urstoff Urstoff
    23. August 2016 at 07:45

    “He’s just saying that for the media”
    “He’ll be tougher in office”
    “The wall is what really matters, not detention centers”

    I’m sure Trump supporters will come up with more silly excuses.

  2. Gravatar of msgkings msgkings
    23. August 2016 at 08:20

    There’s definitely been a shift in Trump’s tone and manner lately, we’ll see if it’s too late.

    It doesn’t matter if he makes any sense of course, on this I agree with Scott Adams. Can he pretend he’s not who he is long enough to win a squeaker? Probably not, but never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate or the awfulness of his opponent.

    I still don’t think he wants the job itself.

  3. Gravatar of H_WASSHOI (Maekawa Miku-nyan lover) H_WASSHOI (Maekawa Miku-nyan lover)
    23. August 2016 at 08:26

    I still don’t take any positions of “Who will win the White house?”(prediction market)

  4. Gravatar of Effem Effem
    23. August 2016 at 09:42

    He makes a valid point. Why all the hysteria over how “tough” Trump will be on illegal immigrants when Obama has pushed deportations at a blistering pace?

  5. Gravatar of Charlie Jameson Charlie Jameson
    23. August 2016 at 10:34

    He’s just pointing out that we already have laws to deal with illegal immigration and he only wants to enforce them.
    Net illegal immigration is what matters.

  6. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    23. August 2016 at 10:38

    Scott, I think Jim has a typo here:

    Obama will emulate those tough policies of . . . Obama and Bush!

    Should be “Trump will…” no?

    As for you poll, I vote 4. That’s always been the funniest to me on every subject. As for Harding, I agree, approach with caution!

    Does this mean we can call Trump the #GangOf1?

    Enjoy what remains of your vacation Scott!

  7. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    23. August 2016 at 10:42

    Re: the typo I suspected above: it looks like Jim has corrected it in the original which now reads:

    Great news, immigration hawks! Trump will emulate those tough policies of… Obama and Bush! Aren’t you thrilled? Haven’t you passionately campaigned for the status quo all these years?

  8. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    23. August 2016 at 10:52

    ¡Hacer América Grande Otra Vez!

  9. Gravatar of Benny Lava Benny Lava
    23. August 2016 at 12:52

    I always found it interesting that conservatives were upset with Obama over immigration. When I tell them that Obama has overseen more deportations than any president in the last 50 years they flat out tell me I’m lying and no evidence I present will change their minds.

    Maybe they will believe when Trump says it?

  10. Gravatar of msgkings msgkings
    23. August 2016 at 13:04

    @Benny: yes that’s how blind partisanship works. Debt is bad (when Dems do it) but deficits don’t matter (when Reps do). Deporting illegals is bad (when Reps do it) but just great when Obama does.

    Most voters are voting as a means of self-expression, as members of a tribe. Why not, no one’s vote matters (especially for president), it’s about joining a club. Team Red people would vote for a ham sandwich if it was a Rep, and Team Blue people would vote for a stapler if it was a Dem. If Obama does it, it’s awful. If Bush does it, it’s awful (the other team).

    Not everyone is like that, but way to many are.

  11. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. August 2016 at 14:05

    “Why all the hysteria over how “tough” Trump will be on illegal immigrants when Obama has pushed deportations at a blistering pace?”

    -Not from inside the country (on that, he has been very weak), but he has turned away a good number of people from the border. Trump will continue that and expand on that -WITHOUT OBAMNESTY. Nothing wrong with that.

    “He’s just pointing out that we already have laws to deal with illegal immigration and he only wants to enforce them.
    Net illegal immigration is what matters.”

    -Exactly.

    George W. Bush WAS strong on deportations. Are you denying that, Sumner? If so, your IQ has declined even further than I thought it did.

    “P.S. If you see Harding on the street, steer clear. His head might explode.”

    -Intracranial pressure didn’t go up by even one millimeter of mercury.

    “As for Harding, I agree, approach with caution!”

    -You do know I look nothing like that? I’m not old, and I don’t own a construction hat, a Trump sign, a shovel, or even a gun. And if you have a blog, why don’t you ever showcase it?

    As for the poll, I vote for #1.

    Make America Great Again!

    “they flat out tell me I’m lying”

    -They are correct.

  12. Gravatar of msgkings msgkings
    23. August 2016 at 14:15

    @Harding: to be fair, the guy in that pic looks like his IQ is lower than yours of 96.

    Also, Tom has no way of knowing if you look nothing like that.

  13. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    23. August 2016 at 14:22

    @E. Harding, sorry if that pic looks nothing like you, but when I first laid eyes on it I thought to myself “I think I know that guy!” … and of course I was thinking of you. Now the reverse happened with Deco: reading his comments and interacting w/him created a specific mental picture for me, which I was then compelled to go out and find.

  14. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    23. August 2016 at 14:28

    @E. Harding, taking Sumner’s cue, I’ll take another stab at what you look like: is this more accurate? No shovels, guns, construction hats, Trump signs, and he’s not old. It’s got to be at least a little bit closer, no?

  15. Gravatar of Bonnie Bonnie
    23. August 2016 at 14:44

    Trump has always talked about following the law that calls for deportation of people who haven’t followed the legal process to come here. What the controversy has been about is that a lot of people don’t like the law that deports people as they are caught, regardless of the suspect’s circumstances, like someone who has been here since a very young age and knows no other home – and Trump does. This isn’t an about face at all.

    Through all the colorful rhetoric from Trump’s opponents, I’ve been wondering why nobody has bothered to paint a Nazi mustache on Obama, or call him racist, because his administration has deported almost as many people as the Bush and Clinton administrations combined, all while pretending to be opposed to it. It shows what an artful politician Obama really is.

  16. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. August 2016 at 14:44

    “It’s got to be at least a little bit closer, no?”

    -Yup; a little bit closer.

  17. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. August 2016 at 14:46

    “I’ve been wondering why nobody has bothered to paint a Nazi mustache on Obama, or call him racist,”

    -Well, nobody except Mexican activists.

    “because his administration has deported almost as many people as the Bush and Clinton administrations combined,”

    -Not true.

    “all while pretending to be opposed to it.”

    -He supports Obamnesty, surely?

  18. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    23. August 2016 at 15:54

    Far spookier than Trump’s indecipherable positions on immigration is his budding friendship with billionaire Robert Mercer (gold nut) and neocon John Bolton (warmonger).

    I guess Trump is trying to appeal to all wings of the GOP, which is what pols do.

    Trump has to figure out aligning the non-interventionists with the warmongers and the anti-immigrationists with interests that want cheap labor.

    It almost makes me feel sorry for Trump.

  19. Gravatar of Ray Lopez Ray Lopez
    23. August 2016 at 15:59

    A piece in Medium I think it was says that due to ‘core’ die-hard party members, who vote the party ticket regardless of the person, Trump might get 35% of the vote, independents get 15% and Clinton gets 50%. Sounds reasonable. As long as E. Harding is denied, it will make American great again.

  20. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. August 2016 at 16:15

    Prediction: Trump: 49%, Clinton: 48%, Johnson 1%, Stein 1%, others, 1%.

    Benjamin Cole, as usual, gets at the real issues, which are ignored by appearance-based individuals like Sumner.

  21. Gravatar of Benny Lava Benny Lava
    23. August 2016 at 17:27

    From the comments I can tell the following:

    -When Obama deports people it is bad
    -But Obama hasn’t deported enough people
    -Trump will deport more people
    -But maybe Trump will deport less people; either way that’s better

    I love it. Next thing Major Moron will tell me I am a liar because I haven’t revealed my own opinion or preferences on deportation.

  22. Gravatar of BP BP
    23. August 2016 at 19:10

    Scott, I hope you’re following the Australian Senate push for NGDP (level?) targeting while on your vacation.

  23. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    23. August 2016 at 19:26

    Benny Lava, you’re an idiot. When Obama deports illegals, that’s good. When Trump deports illegals, that’s also good. But Trump will deport far more illegals than Obama. Simple as that.

  24. Gravatar of Andrew Garland Andrew Garland
    23. August 2016 at 22:14

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story.html

    High deportation figures are misleading. People entering at the border who are immediately turned around are now counted as deportations. How to lie using statistics.

    LA Times 4/1/14
    === ===
    [edited] The portrait of a steadily increasing number of deportations rests on statistics that conceal almost as much as they disclose. Actually, expulsions of people who are settled and working in the United States have fallen more than 40% since 2009, Obama’s first year in office.

    The number of people deported at or near the border has gone up as a result of changing who gets counted. The vast majority of them would not have been formal deportations under most previous administrations.

    The change helped the administration look tough in its early years
    === ===

    Google: deportation border turnaround

  25. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    24. August 2016 at 02:21

    From CNN

    Nobel prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz says it’s “absolutely wrong” for the U.S. to pass the trade deal known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

    It will only help big corporations, not American citizens, he says.

    “The advocates of trade said it was going to benefit everyone. The evidence is it’s benefited a few and left a lot behind,” Stiglitz told CNN’s Richard Quest on Quest Means Business Tuesday.

    Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are against TPP, a free trade agreement that President Obama has been pushing with 11 other Asian nations. China is not a part of the deal.

    There’s a chance Obama might try one last time to get Congress to pass TPP. Lawmakers typically come back to Washington for a few days after the presidential election. It’s known as a “lame duck” session.
    “I find that outrageous,” says Stiglitz. “To rush it through in a lame-duck session, I think, is absolutely wrong.”

    Stiglitz is supporting Clinton and advising her on economic and trade policy. He says he’s not against trade, but he thinks some deals America has in place have been a mistake.

    “I would change NAFTA too,” admits Stiglitz. He worked in Bill Clinton’s administration and says NAFTA was inherited from the George H.W. Bush administration and no one wanted to tinker with it. “That was a big mistake.”

    While Trump has made fixing trade deals the centerpiece of his economic platform, Stiglitz says Trump goes too far. He’s “basically a protectionist.”

    Much like TPP, Stiglitz says NAFTA did not include enough protections for workers and intellectual property.

    “The rhetoric that everyone was going to be better off was a lie,” he says.

    Stiglitz is currently promoting his new book, “The Euro: How A Common Currency Threatens The Future of Europe.”

    He argues the euro and the push for austerity have caused Europe to enter a prolonged economic slump.

    –30–

  26. Gravatar of Federico Federico
    24. August 2016 at 05:48

    #4 definitely.

  27. Gravatar of Gene Callahan Gene Callahan
    24. August 2016 at 07:37

    @msgkings: “@Harding: to be fair, the guy in that pic looks like his IQ is lower than yours of 96.”

    And his emotional maturity age looks higher than yours of nine!

  28. Gravatar of msgkings msgkings
    24. August 2016 at 08:21

    @Gene:

    Sick burn, bro.

  29. Gravatar of MikeDC MikeDC
    24. August 2016 at 10:38

    Not a fan of Trump, but also not a fan of bad arguments, which is what the whole “Obama deports lots of people” argument is.

    Given that “temporary” admissions have more than doubled over the last ten years or so, and most of those folks are turning out to be permanent, the actual rate at which the Obama administration has deported illegal immigrants is almost certainly much lower than under the Bush administration, even before you get to the sort of number cheating links that Andrew Garland points out.

    Of course, this is elementary statistics, but the fact that an otherwise smart audience is curiously unwilling to think hard about the numbers is pretty good evidence that the reality isn’t sufficiently politically correct to talk about. Immigration statistics are more or less the IQ research of the 21st century.

  30. Gravatar of BoredLawyer BoredLawyer
    24. August 2016 at 12:40

    1. The fact that Trump has never heard of immigration detention centers.

  31. Gravatar of dtoh dtoh
    24. August 2016 at 19:35

    @scott

    4. The fact that Trumpistas believed that Trump was sincere on immigration.

    5. The fact the Bernankyites believed that Bernanke was sincere on monetary policy.

    What is the difference. Do you really believe the consistency of policy pronouncements during a campaign is a legitimate litmus test for a politician’s suitability for office. Seriously I don’t think any one over the age of 26 is that naive.

  32. Gravatar of Benny Lava Benny Lava
    24. August 2016 at 19:53

    Trumptards believe what they want, evidence be damned:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/flow-of-illegal-immigration-slows-as-us-mexico-border-dynamics-evolve/2015/05/27/c5caf02c-006b-11e5-833c-a2de05b6b2a4_story.html

    Hey all I’m saying is you guys are now disagreeing with the Donald himself. Who is low IQ now?

  33. Gravatar of collin collin
    25. August 2016 at 05:49

    It is Trump and he has done this shifting with all policies. He makes strong statements of policy, Muslim Ban or Immigration or Iraq War, and then shifts back over the next few weeks. Nothing new here.

    The problem is this shift hurts his very strong base support (30% of voters) but I don’t think it improves his position with white educated voters, many of whom voted for Romney in 2012. I believe his other statements hurt him worse here.

  34. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    25. August 2016 at 08:00

    Everyone, People ask me why I have no respect for Trumpistas. It’s not because I disagree with them. I also disagree with people who like Hillary, but don’t look down on them. It’s because they won’t admit the obvious—that Trump’s been lying about being tough on immigration. They admit he lies about everything else, but insist he’s sincere about immigration. And when he admits he’s not tough, and even thinks Obama’s detention centers are too tough, they cover their eyes and pretend it never happened.

    Ben, You said:

    “Far spookier than Trump’s indecipherable positions on immigration is his budding friendship with billionaire Robert Mercer (gold nut) and neocon John Bolton (warmonger).”

    Didn’t I tell you that nothing Trump says can be believed? But at least you admit there is a problem. People like Harding criticize me for saying Trump is not sincere on immigration, and then when I’m proved correct they don’t have the class to admit I’m right.

    BP, Yes, I have seen that.

    dtoh, If nothing Trump says can be believed, then why do you support him? It can’t be personality, as he is perhaps the most obnoxious personality in America. You say nothing he says can be trusted. OK, I agree, Then why vote for him? You must have some reason. What is it?

    Seriously, most politicians can be believed on most issues. Yes, Hillary lies about her corruption. But on policy, Hillary really will try to raise taxes on the rich, expand child care, reduce student debt and build infrastructure. Maybe she lies about TPP. Trump’s not a normal politician. He lies about EVERYTHING. We have zero information on what Trump would do on any issue. All we know is that he’s really dumb on policy, really impulsive, really arrogant, really authoritarian, really vindictive, has incompetent advisors and is obnoxious.

    So let’s make him President?

  35. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    25. August 2016 at 09:12

    “People ask me why I have no respect for Trumpistas… It’s because they won’t admit the obvious—that Trump’s been lying about being tough on immigration. They admit he lies about everything else, but insist he’s sincere about immigration.”

    It was clear from the start Trump would compromise to win the election. This was obvious and I have admitted this. I’m not at all surprised and I don’t feel betrayed that he has softened his statements and claims. Trump is playing to win the election, not to resist compromises.

    If you blame Trump fans for believing Trump’s rhetoric on immigration, you must also blame Trump’s opponents for believing it as well. I was at a Trump rally and was heckled by people waving the Mexican flag. Are they refusing to admit the obvious as well?

    I will feel betrayed if Trump does the things I imagine that Hillary will do in terms of “comprehensive” immigration reform, full amnesty, single payer health care, $15 minimum wage, far left supreme court picks like Sotomayor and Ginsburg. Trump has already suggested he might do some federal minimum wage, which is bad. I still suspect Hillary will be much worse.

    Given that Sumner has endorsed Hillary, I suspect he will be disappointed by her actions if she wins.

  36. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    25. August 2016 at 09:18

    Scott, in light of Trump’s flip flops on immigration (and everything else), I propose a new meaning for the word “cuck”:

    Cuck
    /ˈkək/
    noun
    1. One who still clings to some vague hope that Donald J. Trump can be trusted on any issue other than his continued feeble attempts at self aggrandizement (since that, at least, is at the core of his being)

  37. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    25. August 2016 at 09:25

    “and then when I’m proved correct they don’t have the class to admit I’m right.”

    -You haven’t been proven correct. If you are, I will gladly admit it.

    In any case, even if you are correct (which, so far, you haven’t been), Her has the most open immigration position ever. Trump doesn’t. So who does the authentic immigration restrictionist vote for in this fight? Not McMullin. Not Stein. Not Johnson. Not Her.

    https://www.numbersusa.com/content/elections/races/presidential/2016-presidential-hopefuls.html

    “dumb on policy, really impulsive, really arrogant, really authoritarian, really vindictive, has incompetent advisors and is obnoxious.”

    -Sounds more like Her than Trump.

    “If nothing Trump says can be believed, then why do you support him?”

    -Because everything the other candidates say CAN be believed.

    “We have zero information on what Trump would do on any issue.”

    *Build the wall.

    *Cut taxes for the middle class.

    *Institute a temporary shutdown on Muslims entering the United States.

    *Work with Russia on defeating the Islamic State.

    *Institute penalties on companies moving jobs overseas.

    *Remove some regulations.

    *Re-institute waterboarding

    *Target terrorists’ families

    *Support infrastructure bills.

    *Repeal and replace Obamacare with something much better.

    *Make “allies” shoulder a greater part of their defense burden.

    *Make NATO more focused on combating terrorism.

    *Be very tough on whistleblowers.

    *Appoint Supreme Court justices with similar views to Justice Scalia.

    *Pull out of the TPP

    *Renegotiate NAFTA

    *Take the oil from newly liberated countries

    *The various policies stated here:

    https://fop.net/CmsDocument/Doc/2016PresidentialQuestionnaire.pdf

    Trump does not have fixed positions on all policies. Some fraction of the above may not be fulfilled. But you can’t say we have no information about what Trump will do once in office.

  38. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    25. August 2016 at 09:28

    Massimo, Trump only did the minimum wage thing because polls showed it was popular. I have no clue why he’s not being explicit on immigration; polls show deporting the illegals is very popular, especially among northeastern Republicans.

    BTW, in Florida, Trump got a substantial percentage of votes from people who didn’t want to deport the illegals.

  39. Gravatar of LK Beland LK Beland
    25. August 2016 at 10:41

    Massimo Heitor

    “Given that Sumner has endorsed Hillary, I suspect he will be disappointed by her actions if she wins.”

    My understanding is that Scott Sumner might vote for Clinton if he lived in a state where the race was close, but that he supports Johnson and will likely vote for him.

    More generally, I must say that having both major party candidates speak out against free trade is very depressing. Quite a sad state of affair.

  40. Gravatar of Urstoff Urstoff
    25. August 2016 at 11:08

    Trump supporters six months ago: I like Trump because he says what he means and doesn’t bullshit you.

    Trump supporters today: Of course he’s changing course and being wishy-washy on issues, he’s trying to win an election, that’s what politicians do!

  41. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    25. August 2016 at 11:34

    Scott, I don’t know if you saw, but yesterday was the 1st day Ann Coulter was out signing copies of her new book. =)

  42. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    25. August 2016 at 13:04

    It really looks like Hillary is going to win… Trump supporters assure us all that a hill win means that things are going to get bad for america..
    How about taking these predictions to market ? Just for posterity…
    will the economy under hilliary be better or worse ? In what ways ? for example…
    Will unemployment under Hill be….
    Much worse
    worse
    about the same
    better
    much Better

    Trump people…all people…. Be free to choose your own measurement…
    Stockmarket.. Healthcare costs…war… immigration… Flatulence… whatever…
    It doesn’t even have to be directly about econ.. it’s always about econ…

    How about crime rates…people happier ? whatever… its all good…

    If you’re so sure how good or bad things will be with Hill as president…maybe you should be able to make a prediction…Or do it Just for the hell of it…

    Me, I think she will basically be a lot like obama…she’ll either hold ground liberals have gained or push moderately forward… like getting a public option…

    In general I think America is in the most enviable position of the world’s power centers… and we will likely remain so as the chinese adjust to free market reality… and the europeans keep imposing austerity… I think the US of A is going to be doing RELATIVELY well for a decade or so…as long as we don’t mess with the international status quo too much..

    But if our sable position is hit by economic shocks of our own making.. (trumpism )…we could easily see a recession… (but he not gonna get elected..so I could stick my neck out and say he’d cause the complete collapse of the world’s economy…lol…and I’d never have to answer for it…)

    but anti hill folks don’t have that luxury..do they…?

    Privliage ROCKS !!!

  43. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    25. August 2016 at 13:27

    Trump-Cucked
    /trəmp-ˈkəked/
    noun
    1. One who submits himself to the authority of Trump no matter how much or how many times he humiliates them by forcing them to publicly twist themselves into any position he tells them to take.. especially when performed with eagerness and gratitude…

    “Every time Trump gave them the order to change for him, they assumed the new position without question or complaint…proving themselves to be complelty trump-cucked”…

  44. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    25. August 2016 at 13:50

    Eeeeehehehe Harding…
    so you never called or thought of Obama’s policy or Jeb!’s policy as Amnesty ?

    now that Trumps adopted the same policies somehow that’s not Amnesty..

    how are you defining amnesty today ? does your definition of amnesty now hinge on how what trump says he will do is different than what Obama’s done ?

    I bet it does !

  45. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    25. August 2016 at 13:52

    Still on “vacation”, so let’s just have a poll. What’s funnier:

    1. The fact that Trump has never heard of immigration detention centers.

    2. The fact that he doesn’t know that Obama puts illegals into detention centers.

    3. The fact that Trump has decided to run to the left of Obama on immigration.
    4. The fact that Trumpistas believed that Trump was sincere on immigration.

    I can’t pick…want a fifth choice…all of the above…

  46. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    25. August 2016 at 16:44

    Funny stuff… even Ann Coulter thinks trumps new stance amounts to amnesty… At least for today shes does… On the same day her book ..”in Trump we trust ” hits the stands..

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ann-coulter-book-launch_us_57be9461e4b02673444e79f4?

  47. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    25. August 2016 at 17:03

    Maybe there really is something wrong with his brain:
    http://therightscoop.com/wth-trump-just-flip-flopped-again-on-amnesty/

  48. Gravatar of dtoh dtoh
    25. August 2016 at 18:52

    Scott

    Policy details? No. I don’t believe anything any politician says on the details. Even if they were trying to be honest, implementation would never be consistent with what they has said. That’s not what the way governance in a republic works.

    Overall policy direction. Yes. I think Trump’s position on illegal immigration, taxes, educational choice, government regulation, AHCA, trade, etc are pretty clear. At least as clear as Clinton’s position. Do you really think they are not clear?

    I get you have a visceral dislike for Trump, but you’re not being objective when you claim he’s significantly less truthful than Clinton. He’s certainly less practiced than Clinton, but which would you rather have? Someone who sometimes puts his foot in his mouth? Or a skilled liar like Hillary?

  49. Gravatar of Greg DeLassus Greg DeLassus
    26. August 2016 at 10:23

    Deporting illegals is bad (when Reps do it) but just great when Obama does.

    I disagree with the cynical framing of the above. I favor a much more welcoming immigration policy (make it much easier for immigrants to come here legally, so that there is no need to sneak across the border), but that does not mean that I am upset with Pres. Obama’s pace of deportations.

    To my mind, the total number of deportations is a poor way to measure the effectiveness of an immigration regime. I want to see criminal aliens deported, and amnesty granted to otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants.

    Pres. Obama has decided to prioritize criminal deportations. These are exactly the people that we all should want to see deported, so if Pres. Obama is stepping up the pace on that work, I say “well done.”

    Meanwhile, he has completely deprioritized deportations for people who keep their noses clean and stay out of trouble. That is the ideal arrangement, in my book, but you cannot assess the worthiness of this strategy simply by knowing the total number of deportations. It really matters whom we are deporting, and if you just focus on total numbers you are going to miss that rather important detail.

  50. Gravatar of Greg DeLassus Greg DeLassus
    26. August 2016 at 10:52

    I must say that having both major party candidates speak out against free trade is very depressing.

    What specific statements do you have in mind? I confess that I am not aware of both candidates speaking out against “free trade” in general. Both oppose the TPP, but it is not really clear to me that the TPP can be meaningfully described as a “free trade” agreement. In any event, opposition to one specific multilateral agreement is hardly the same thing as opposing free trade in general.

  51. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    26. August 2016 at 11:59

    Massimo, You said:

    “Given that Sumner has endorsed Hillary, I suspect he will be disappointed by her actions if she wins.”

    This is why I have such contempt for you Trumpistas. I said she’d be a “terrible” President, in the very same sentence where I endorsed her, yet you intentionally ignore that fact. Why would I be disappointed if I already expected her to be a terrible president?

    dtoh, You said:

    “Overall policy direction. Yes. I think Trump’s position on illegal immigration, taxes, educational choice, government regulation, AHCA, trade, etc are pretty clear.”

    I strongly disagree. We have no reason to believe Trump on anything. He simply says what he thinks he needs to say to get ahead. He’s not at all like normal politicians. With Hillary, I know she’ll govern as a liberal Democrat, probably not too different from Obama—maybe a bit more militaristic. I know what Ted Cruz believes. Trump lies every time he opens his mouth; we have no reason to believe anything he says.

    He just put forward an immigration position to the left of Obama, saying that even detention centers were too “mean”, and his supporters over here insist nothing has changed. Their naivete is just laughable. Trump was right when he said he could murder someone on 5th avenue and his supporters would not care. There is literally nothing he could do that would dissuade them.

    Look at what Ann Coulter said recently:

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ann-coulter-said-one-thing-135137700.html

    As for “illegal immigration” all candidates oppose it. Trump won’t do any more to stop it than Obama has done.

    A few weeks ago the usual suspects like Harding and Massimo were telling me that Trump lied about many things, but not illegal immigration—that was the one issue he was sincere about. Now Trump tells us that he was lying about that too, and they act like his position has not changed. It’s changed to a position to the left of Obama:

    1. Both Obama and Trump want to expel the “bad guys”.

    2. Both want to keep the good guys.

    2. Obama uses detention centers, whereas Trump says they are too “mean”.

    This is so crazy I sometimes have to pinch myself to realize I’m not dreaming; America really is becoming a banana republic.

    Why would anyone believe anything Trump says?

  52. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    26. August 2016 at 12:56

    Scott, Good news! The folks at RedState.com put together a short 10s video that completely clears up Trump’s position on immigration:
    http://www.redstate.com/aglanon/2016/08/26/video-will-clear-confusion-trump/
    Enjoy!

  53. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    26. August 2016 at 13:01

    Why would anyone believe anything Trump says?

    I do at least believe his Trump University sales playbook which stated:

    “You don’t sell products, benefits or solutions — you sell feelings,”

  54. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    26. August 2016 at 14:16

    @LK Beland,

    “My understanding is that Scott Sumner might vote for Clinton if he lived in a state where the race was close, but that he supports Johnson and will likely vote for him.”

    Sumner’s titled a post: “Hillary is terrible. I despise her. I endorse her.”

    That’s very clear. He’s not endorsing Johnson or anyone else, he’s endorsing Hillary as a less-evil alternative to Trump.

    @sumner

    “This is why I have such contempt for you Trumpistas. I said she’d be a ‘terrible’ President, in the very same sentence where I endorsed her, yet you intentionally ignore that fact.”

    No, I really am not ignoring that. To repeat your title summary: “Hillary is terrible. I despise her. I endorse her.”

    You link PJ O’Rourke saying something similar: “She’s wrong about absolutely everything — but she’s wrong within normal parameters!”

    I’m not twisting your words or intentions.

    I said you will be disappointed by Hillary’s actions if she wins. I understand your expectations are low.

    I don’t feel betrayed by Trump. He has said some bad things, I’m still hoping that he can win. If Trump wins the elections and stocks the supreme court with more Sotomayors I’ll feel betrayed.

    “Why would anyone believe anything Trump says?”

    Hillary lies too. Most people take everything candidates say with skepticism.

    @Harding

    “Massimo, Trump only did the minimum wage thing because polls showed it was popular.”

    Obviously. He’s just playing to win the election.

  55. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    26. August 2016 at 14:36

    “Trump won’t do any more to stop it than Obama has done.”

    -Demonstrably false:
    https://www.numbersusa.com/content/elections/races/presidential/2016-presidential-hopefuls.html

    Obama doesn’t support the wall, ending birthright citizenship, or defunding sanctuary cities.

    “As for “illegal immigration” all candidates oppose it.”

    -Lie. All the candidates support it except Trump.

    “and they act like his position has not changed”

    -Because it hasn’t.

    “We have no reason to believe Trump on anything. He simply says what he thinks he needs to say to get ahead. He’s not at all like normal politicians.”

    -Of course he is. Look at the list of positions I made. Trump hasn’t backtracked on one of them. Compare that to the last GOP nominee (whom you ridiculously believed to have been a “free-trader”, despite his explicit statements to the contrary), whom I literally didn’t trust on any issue at all.

  56. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    26. August 2016 at 18:07

    Massimo…”He’s just playing to win the election.”

    so how do you know what he will really do ? how do you know where he stands ?

    he’s the null set… you can’t support him on anything tangible…You can only have FAITH in trump…

    Clearly …You don’t know the difference between worship and admiration…
    worship requires only faith…
    admiration is a recognition of substance…

  57. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    26. August 2016 at 18:21

    E hard…”Obama doesn’t support the wall, ending birthright citizenship, or defunding sanctuary cities.”

    so if trump flips on one these then you will finally be angry ? Or will you just twist yourself into whatever position trump demands of you with a smile on your face ?

    Where will you draw the line? What line will trump have to cross…what further trust will he have to break…for your self respect to finally kick in ?

    maybe if it ever kicks in ….you would not be driven to say ridiculous things like all candidates but Trump support illegal immigration… Wow, is there no bottum to the depth you will sink to worship your Trump ?

  58. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    26. August 2016 at 18:27

    Trump alone can fix immigration…with amnesty !!!

  59. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    26. August 2016 at 19:22

    Trump alone can fix immigration…with amnesty !!!

    Bill, to be fair, “amnesty” probably isn’t accurate. Shamnesty maybe, or perhaps scamnesty: either would likely be more in keeping with Trump’s nature.

  60. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    27. August 2016 at 06:25

    Massimo, You said:

    “Sumner’s titled a post: “Hillary is terrible. I despise her. I endorse her.”

    That’s very clear.”

    Then why did you say I’d probably be disappointed by her performance? What part of “terrible” do you not understand? Perhaps you come from another country, and have just a limited knowledge of the English language. Is that your problem?

    Harding, You said:

    “Because it hasn’t.”

    This is simply pathetic.

  61. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    27. August 2016 at 10:16

    @Bill Ellis,

    “so how do you know what he will really do ? how do you know where he stands ?”

    There are never guarantees. Everyone infers positions and intentions. And sometimes you bet wrong.

    To @sumner and the other anti-Trump crowd,

    While many including Sumner have consistently said that Hillary is a terrible candidate, you certainly haven’t applied any pressure for moderation or compromise at all.

    I can respect moderates who push for moderation, but Sumner is effectively pushing for a more terrible radical left Hillary in reaction to Trump. If Hillary is leading in the polls, use what political capital you have to push for her to moderate rather than push for larger margin wins over Trump.

  62. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    27. August 2016 at 10:18

    @sumner, Come on. It’s reasonable to think Hillary is terrible, endorse her as a lesser evil, yet still be disappointed when she does enact the far left items I expect her to. As I said in my last post, a more sensible reaction is to push for Hillary to moderate and win, not give her blank check support.

  63. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    27. August 2016 at 10:40

    “This is simply pathetic.”

    -Again, if you want to show a contradiction, show it. So far, you’ve done nothing of the kind. When did Trump ever say he’d use detention centers?

  64. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    27. August 2016 at 10:43

    BTW, Massimo is right. It really does seem these #NeverTrumpers are nothing more than dime-store Democrats.

  65. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    27. August 2016 at 13:04

    @E Harding, the right wing Hillary endorsers aren’t generic Democrats, but they are giving her a blank check to go far left. And they are responsible for that.

    The more reasonable right-wing opposition to trump is to apply pressure for Hillary to moderate in exchange for support.

    I’m obviously voting Trump. My biggest fear about Trump is that he might lose the election.

  66. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    27. August 2016 at 20:22

    @Massimo, HRC has a good chance of having a slim senate majority, but little chance of a house majority. That’s hardly a blank check! w/o a filibuster proof senate majority, will she even get ANY supreme court picks?

  67. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    28. August 2016 at 17:12

    Harding, He’s backed off from his promise to expel the illegal immigrants. Everyone in the world sees this as a flip flop, except you.

    If he announced that he planned to accept a million Syrian immigrants tomorrow, you’d say there was no contradiction.

  68. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    29. August 2016 at 06:35

    @sumner, All the other Republican candidates made a big deal about the GOP loyalty pledge and then reneged. That is a flip flop but also a clear cut lie and broken pledge. Even the National Review endorsed breaking the pledge. I can’t believe anything any of them say either.

  69. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    29. August 2016 at 09:18

    Trending on Twitter: #AmnestyDon. And now Trump surrogates talking about a virtual wall?

  70. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    29. August 2016 at 15:18

    A lot of people are calling him Amnesty Don. People are saying it,” Scarborough said Monday. “They’re calling him Amnesty Don. Amnesty Don, that’s what people are calling him, I’m not calling him that. Amnesty Don. Hashtag Amnesty Don. For 14 months, Amnesty Don has been putting illegal immigration at the center of Amnesty Don’s campaign… And, yet, nobody in Amnesty Don’s own campaign can tell you what Amnesty Don’s position is after Amnesty Don won the primaries promising to deport 11 [million illegal immigrants].”

    http://theweek.com/speedreads/645652/joe-scarborough-gives-donald-trump-brutal-nickname–sticking

  71. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    29. August 2016 at 15:21

    Tom… “Bill, to be fair, “amnesty” probably isn’t accurate.”

    I’m just holding trump and his supporters to the standards they have set.. I think that’s very fair.

    But I get your point… “Amnesty” is a politically plastic term…

  72. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    29. August 2016 at 15:32

    The “Massimo argument”… ALL IS ENIGMA…Why is your slice of enigma any more relevant than mine.!!

    I think maybe you don’t get this…Uncertainty is not absolute… Events that are close in time can be predicted with more accuracy than events farther off… A lot of people could do a good job predicting what inflation will be over the next few years…but few could reliably predict what it will be 50 years from now, any guess would be as good as random… (within certain parameters )

  73. Gravatar of Bill Ellis Bill Ellis
    29. August 2016 at 15:40

    E harding… Tomorrow Trump is going to let you know what position to take on Immigration.. He’s had you tied into knots the way he’s been calling out positions for you alt righty” guys to get behind…

    maybe he’ll give you a really solid argument you can really grab a hold of and use…

  74. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    30. August 2016 at 11:56

    @Bill Ellis,

    If we imagine a measure of president quality, X, where high values are good, and low are bad:

    – You are claiming that Var(X_Trump) is high. And Var(X_Trump) > Var(X_Hillary).
    – We want high X. Specifically, we want high E(X) or, high expected value of X. If Trump is really random, than Var(X_Trump) might be high, but E(X_Trump) is a neutral value. We agree that E(X_Hillary) is terrible. So if E(X_Trump) > E(X_Hillary), we should vote and cheer accordingly.

    Also, if Trump flip flops so much, are the insults and criticisms flip flopping? Are all those who accused Trump of being xenophobic or islamophobic reversing their judgements? No, they are not, and while Trump is shifting his positions, he’s not doing complete flips.

  75. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    30. August 2016 at 23:41

    I think I found Harding’s twitter account:
    https://twitter.com/NationalistHero

  76. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    30. August 2016 at 23:47

    … and his second blog?: https://twitter.com/NationalistHero/status/770879690718404608
    Informative definition of what #AltRightMeans

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