Trump’s lead among evil dictators is now virtually insurmountable

2016:  The year The Onion merged with REALITY.

According to the Guardian:

North Korea praises Trump and urges US voters to reject ‘dull Hillary’

Screen Shot 2016-05-31 at 1.17.11 PM

 

North Korean state media has praised US presidential hopeful Donald Trump, describing him as a “wise politician” and “far-sighted candidatewho could help unify the Korean peninsula.

I’m getting so bored with the “dull” Korean peninsula.  Let’s have a President who can bring some excitement to Korea!


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172 Responses to “Trump’s lead among evil dictators is now virtually insurmountable”

  1. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    31. May 2016 at 13:23

    Kim Jong Il praised Bill Clinton and that was the main reason Il allowed Clinton into the country to negotiate a deal to release of two American prisoners Euna Lee and Laura Ling.

    By Sumner’s spoiling of the well logic, this means we should look negatively on Bill Clinton.

    This post also just confirms what I have always said is the case on this “academic” blog: Popularity is more important than Truth.

  2. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    31. May 2016 at 13:40

    Scott, what do they do at the Onion these days? Just reprint the actual news? It must be a daunting task to compete with reality these day if you’re in the satire business.

    You probably won’t like all of this guy’s cartoons, but you might like his Trump related ones… he just adds a tiny bit of exaggeration to real events, and he’s done. Here’s a few:

    This one is similar to your Onion comment:
    http://www.thenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/TMW2016-05-25colorLARGE.jpg

    http://www.thenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/TMW2016-05-11colorLARGE.jpg

  3. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 14:37

    Major Freedom actually makes a substantive comment! The sky just turned brown!

  4. Gravatar of Gary Anderson Gary Anderson
    31. May 2016 at 14:40

    You are so funny, and clever, Scott. I wrote this. It is amazing that two billionaires from different parts of the world think so closely alike:

    So, there are two billionaires in the world who think almost alike. They are Donald Trump and Ihor Kolomoyski. Kolomoyski is a dual Ukraine/Israel citizen. Both Trump and Kolomoyski 1. Hate all Muslims
    2. love right wing white groups like the KKK and/or the Nazis.
    3. support Israel.

    So, Kolomoyski wants to FUSE right wing Nazis in the Ukraine with Jewish people to fight Muslims. So far the Jewish people have shunned Kolomoyski. Trump has not gone that far in seeking a fusion of right wing Jews and racists, but their thinking is similar and Trump gets support from both. He gets support from David Duke, former KKK and Sheldon Adelson, who owns the Venetian, who is a Zionist.

  5. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 14:41

    Actually, 2014 was the year the Onion merged with reality. Rise of the Caliphate spurred on by Obama; Russia finally losing its patience and taking back Krim.

    Make America Great Again!

  6. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 14:51

    Soon, leaders from every part of the Axis of Resistance will endorse the Donald!

    Make America Great Again!

    (BTW: the phrase Make America Great Again is BANNED from the comments section of the Marginal Revolution -Cowen doesn’t want to Make America Great Again).

  7. Gravatar of Thiago Ribeiro Thiago Ribeiro
    31. May 2016 at 15:08

    The North Korean leadership (whoever they, besides the “Great Successor” may be) may prefer to deal with a strong and resolute leader instead of dealing with the puppets that keep getting elected in the USA. As German Foreign Secretary Richard von Kühlmann told Leon Trotsky while dealing with him in Brest-Litovsky, “it was better to deal directly with the master than with his emissary”

    Regarding “dull Hillary”, the North Koreans may be better style judges than we usually give them credit. Those Mao Suits look great (it was a shame Brazil tried to adopt Safari Suits as the civilian service uniforms instead of the Mao Suits– calling them Sun Yat-Sen Suits or Chiang Kai-Shek Suits to preserve our anti-Communist street credit). I would gladly trade my dress shirts for an equal number of Mao Suits if it wouldn’t make me spend the rest of my life being asked if I had just arrived from the Long March (as we ask to people wearing hippiesque outfits if they have walked all the way back from Woodstock– we are a very witty people).

  8. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    31. May 2016 at 15:19

    If Mr. T can unify Korea, then bring him on. The N Koreans would live much better—think East Germany.

    The way politics is carried out in that part of the worle–Putin, Xi, Kim–is a reminder that what America has is pattycake politics. Happily enough.

    Your idea of a bad leader is Mr. T or Mrs. Bill Clinton?

    Have some cream puffs with your cupcakes.

  9. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    31. May 2016 at 15:30

    From The Onion Street Journal:

    “Trump Makes Sense on Energy

    From the mouth of The Donald comes wisdom on America’s climate dissonance.

    By HOLMAN W. JENKINS, JR.May 31, 2016 6:33 p.m. ET”

    —30—

  10. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 15:34

    @Ben

    https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/697224846661578752

    Krugman saw the Donald coming early. Sumner in early August gave him a 0% chance of winning the nomination.

    Make America Great Again!

  11. Gravatar of Gary Anderson Gary Anderson
    31. May 2016 at 15:35

    @Ben “Your idea of a bad leader is Mr. T or Mrs. Bill Clinton?”

    Ben, you have to take into account that Trump is deeply flawed as to his person. He could terrorize a city if he were appointed dog catcher. He is 4 cards short of a 52 card deck.

  12. Gravatar of Chuck Chuck
    31. May 2016 at 15:41

    The North Koreans should build gambling/prostitution/drug palaces catering to nouveau riche Chinese. Why should Sheldon Adelson get all that money?

    “North Koreans may be better style judges than we usually give them credit”

    I like their choreographed pageants, but their olive military uniforms are dull. They should go with a bolder color such as red.

  13. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    31. May 2016 at 16:30

    E. Harding:

    Do please ensure that you are not agreeing with what I said simply because it was an argument that was not a Trump bashing post. I do not support Trump, and I think he will only make the country worse (as will all the other candidates).

    I’ve used identical logic in many of my previous comments and yet you did not respond in the same way.

    Thanks.

  14. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    31. May 2016 at 16:31

    (BTW: the phrase Make America Great Again is BANNED from the comments section of the Marginal Revolution -Cowen doesn’t want to Make America Great Again).

    I’ve been banned from Marginal Revolution again. Since I’ve never called Nathan a ‘fag’ and do not typically leave comments longer than four or five sentences, I cannot figure what it is this time. (I gather Nathan has been banned as well; prior_test keeps a yammerin’ on).

  15. Gravatar of Viking Viking
    31. May 2016 at 16:46

    Art Deco,

    being banned means you undermine the host while making sense.

    As a libertarian, (not pot smoking or jesus freak home schooling), I see you a bit as a fascist authoritarian, but I must complement you on having your facts straight, even when they don’t support your perspective.

    Commenters that can add obscure but relevant facts to the discussion adds immense value to a blog.

    Somehow the bloggers that claim to be libertarian, but derived the majority of their lifelong salary from government sources don’t seem to appreciate you. Their loss.

    P.S. I think troll me is the new Nathan W.

  16. Gravatar of E* Harding E* Harding
    31. May 2016 at 16:48

    I called Jan and rayward fags, not Nathan (at least, as far as I remember).

  17. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 16:50

    Freedom, I only agreed with what you said because it was sensible and did not openly display panties-in-a-twist Austrian ideology.

  18. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    31. May 2016 at 16:58

    Ben, You said:

    “If Mr. T can unify Korea, then bring him on. The N Koreans would live much better—think East Germany.”

    No disrespect, but I think Kim has a different type of “unification” in mind from what you are contemplating.

  19. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    31. May 2016 at 17:08

    I find it interesting that two governments hostile to the US, Russia and North Korea, are saying nice things about Trump. Presumably, it’s because they think they’ll get more of what they want if he’s President.

    If this were the reaction to Obama, I imagine the Trumpistas would take yet another opportunity to call Obama “weak”, “incompetent” or even accuse him of treason.

    Of course, they don’t see the obvious irony.

  20. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    31. May 2016 at 17:45

    E. Harding:

    I have previously posted non-panties-in-a-twist-Austrian-ideology comments that have been as sensible and more than sensible, yet I didn’t see your “Atta boy” type responses. In fact, I’ve seen quite negative responses.

    Just be honest with yourself.

  21. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    31. May 2016 at 18:34

    Scott Sumner:

    My take on Jong is that he is a nut.

    But the population and economy of S. Korea dwarfs that of N Korea. I would guess any unification would ultimately result in Westernization of the entire peninsula.

    I cannot imagine Jong thinks Trump would plan unification from the North down, rather than from the larger South up.

    But, as stated, Jong appears to be insane.

    I hope for peaceful unification of the Koreans, and Western-style democracy on the peninsula.

    Side note:

    Gary Johnson, “libertarian,” has a “solution” for U.S. immigration problems: Work visas.

    This is suspiciously close to the GOP-establishment immigration position, that is, we want a labor underclass, but without voting rights.

    A legal, permanently growing, non-voting working class. GOP Nirvana—and evidently Gary Johnson’s idea also.

    Egads.

    Democracy is a crummy way to run a country. Until you try the second-best way.

  22. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    31. May 2016 at 18:44

    To the Anti-immigration crowd,

    Just out of curiosity, why do you oppose economic freedom? Why is it that, as a businessperson, for example, I’m not allowed to hire any adult I want?

  23. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 18:44

    “I have previously posted non-panties-in-a-twist-Austrian-ideology comments that have been as sensible and more than sensible, yet I didn’t see your “Atta boy” type responses.”

    -Major, maybe that’s because you didn’t post first. I usually don’t read your comments here, anyway. Be lucky I read your first one here today.

    “I imagine the Trumpistas would take yet another opportunity to call Obama “weak”, “incompetent” or even accuse him of treason.”

    -You imagine wrong. I don’t consider Obama treasonous for getting Castro’s endorsement. I consider him treasonous for taking control of the global militant Islamist movement, including re-creating the Islamic State, and using it to kill Americans.

  24. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 18:54

    Scott, because we see what happens when that occurs. Cf., the Great Migration of Black Americans. Imagine something that disastrous (e.g., Milwaukee, Baltimore, Detroit, D.C., Trenton, North Philly, Cleveland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Buffalo, Columbus, Indianapolis, Hartford, South Chicago), but on a global scale. That’s what Open Borders gets ya.

  25. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    31. May 2016 at 19:18

    E. Harding:

    I actually consider myself unlucky that you did. Few things on the blogosphere are worse than people agreeing and disagreeing with each other on the basis of actual or perceived political beliefs. I don’t want agreement for the wrong reasons.

  26. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    31. May 2016 at 19:21

    Harding,

    “-You imagine wrong. I don’t consider Obama treasonous for getting Castro’s endorsement. I consider him treasonous for taking control of the global militant Islamist movement, including re-creating the Islamic State, and using it to kill Americans.”

    You are absolutely nuts. lol Did you get that off infowars or what? Or did you see a Roger Stone interview elsewhere?

    in ’08 Obama was attacked for attending a christian church for 18 years that preached “liberation theology”. Making an issue of Jeremiah Wright didn’t work. So, after the election, Obama was suddenly either a muslim, an atheist, or even in the minds of some fools, both.

  27. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    31. May 2016 at 19:24

    Now Trump’s been attacking a federal judge in one of the lawsuits filed against him for ripping off thousands of students with Trump University:

    http://www.vox.com/2016/5/31/11818964/trump-judge-university-mexican

    The only positive thing about his supporters being completely unreachable, as in pinched off in their own universe, is how funny it will be when even they realize they’ve been had at some point in the future.

    I wonder how many of them will even show up to comment after that.

  28. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    31. May 2016 at 19:26

    By the way, Trump says that judge should be “investigated”. This seems to be a pattern with him. But, it’s silly to say he resembles a banana republic dictator.

  29. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 19:42

    Scott, compare Travelgate and Clinton’s support of the repeal of Citizens United just because she didn’t want Citizens United showing Hillary: The Movie. I mean, the whole case against the Clintons just writes itself. Way more Banana Republic dictator-style than Trump.

    “Did you get that off infowars or what?”

    -No. I got it by watching Wikipedia’s Map of the Syrian Civil War from mid-2013 onward, realizing Obama was obviously backing ISIS around April 2014, and fearing such a thing ever since April 2013, when Obama did nothing about JaN’s takeover of Raqqa.

    Obama talks like a Christian. However, by his policies, it’s more useful to see him as a Sunni Muslim than a Christian. I don’t care what his religion is, as long as he doesn’t insert it into his government.

    “Now Trump’s been attacking a federal judge in one of the lawsuits filed against him for ripping off thousands of students with Trump University”

    -And rightfully so. That judge is a huge advocate for the illegals. Trump is against the illegals. So no doubt the judge is biased against Trump. He should be concerned.

    Scott, I realize Trump’s dishonest. And I don’t care, as he was the best candidate running. It’s like in a multiple choice test, where you have to pick the best answer.

    When Trump wins the election and is inaugurated, then we’ll talk.

    Major, what would agreement for the right reasons be?

  30. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    31. May 2016 at 19:42

    Scott Freelander:

    “To the Anti-immigration crowd,

    Just out of curiosity, why do you oppose economic freedom? Why is it that, as a businessperson, for example, I’m not allowed to hire any adult I want?”

    Scott, comments like this reveal why there are big problems in the world.

    Are you actually not able to grasp the difference between private property ownership upon which economic freedom is based, and the tragedy of the commons which requires a violation or absence of private property rights?

    When governments, which by their very nature violate individual economic freedom, make the decision to allow rapist immigrants into not only public spaces, but also, as in the case of Sweden, literally kicking residents out of their own homes to make way for immigrants, after which the property owners who are not protected by private property rights on those common areas (streets, etc) are assaulted, that this is literally the exact opposite of economic freedom?

    Are you so uneducated that you cannot even tell the difference between aggression and non-aggression? Why am I even asking that question? Of course that is the case.

  31. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    31. May 2016 at 19:45

    E. Harding:

    When your motivation is a relentless, consistent, unmerciful drive towards knowledge of reality, and not cherry picking based on politics.

  32. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    31. May 2016 at 20:07

    Harding,

    Bill Clinton was in office for 8 years. We don’t have to speculate how it turned out. He didn’t resemble a banana republic dictator at all.

    In fact, he often worked well with Republicans in congress, balanced the budget, and the economy happened to do very well under him. So, at the very least, he did not do the sort of damage to economies that banana republic dictators tend to do. And, he didn’t exactly come across as authoritarian, and was very popular as he left office, and has remained so. Was America stronger or weaker before and after Clinton?

    You make no sense.

  33. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 20:13

    Scott, you cite no specifics. Yes, Clinton was forced to work with Gingrich because, after two years of Clinton, Americans hated Clinton and elected a Republican House for the first time since Eisenhower. And the economy soared under Clinton due to factors completely beyond his control. So what? The same could have happened under President Trump (or Perot), without Travelgate or the Lewinsky scandal.

    Major, I approve of your previous two comments.

  34. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 20:14

    And Bill is not Hillary. She’s worse. Believe me. The email scandal is just the tip of the iceberg.

  35. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    31. May 2016 at 20:15

    This is like the South Park episode where the KKK supported the side they wanted to lose because they knew everyone hates them.

    Maybe Kim Jong Un is backing Trump so more dim witted Americans will vote for who he actually sees as least worst.

    It is funny how Sumner believes that a totalitarian dictator is being upfront and honest…about politics…in a country he dislikes…

    If Sumner trusts what a totalitarian dictator says, simply because it aligned with his politics, what else is there to say about his judgment?

    I mean, there is a non-zero probability that this all could be true, but it should not be trusted like this. We have to at least be skeptical and question it.

    Next thing you know, we’ll be given blosposts of reports of what central banker owners and their paid economists say about the purpose of central banks, and we’ll be led to not question and just accept it at face value. Oh wait…

  36. Gravatar of gofx gofx
    31. May 2016 at 20:44

    As I recall, the Iranian leadership tried to make nice by releasing the hostages as Ronald Reagan took office. Do we know why? I think we do.

  37. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    31. May 2016 at 20:48

    Here is the sort of kook that’s a part of the Trump campaign:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW1nveDXmsc

  38. Gravatar of Thiago Ribeiro Thiago Ribeiro
    31. May 2016 at 21:09

    “I like their choreographed pageants, but their olive military uniforms are dull. They should go with a bolder color such as red.”-Chuck
    It is a military, not a marching band. It would be tacky, and the Supreme Leader doesn’t do tacky, according to reliable official sources. Although maybe they should create something like the Red Army Choir, they probably could whip some young men into musical greatness and earn hard currency.

    “To the Anti-immigration crowd,
    Just out of curiosity, why do you oppose economic freedom? Why is it that, as a businessperson, for example, I’m not allowed to hire any adult I want?”– Scott Freelander

    For the same reason you are/should not be allowed to poison my drinking water or drop nuclear waste on my street.

  39. Gravatar of Benjamin Cole Benjamin Cole
    31. May 2016 at 22:15

    Scoot Freelander:

    “Just out of curiosity, why do you oppose economic freedom? Why is it that, as a businessperson, for example, I’m not allowed to hire any adult I want?”

    Yes, but sovereign nations and voting populations have the right to control borders. Imports, exports and migration, and also public health, civil justice, military, and the printing press are obligations of the sovereign. In a democracy, that gets messy, but the option is not to have democracy.

    The people of the United States have funded the most boneheaded, expensive, horrid and counterproductive military boondoggles imaginable, including Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Is the option a panel of military experts who determine when we go to way? No, it must be democratically controlled. Same on our borders. It is an obligation of the sovereign.

    Scott, I enjoy your comments, which are (IMHO) intelligent. We sometimes disagree, but so what?

    Let me ask you this: Why is the topic always the evils of the minimum wage and immigration restrictions, but never why is push-cart vending universally criminalized in the U.S.? Why so much extremely stipulative property zoning?

    It seems every mainstream macroeconomist has to prove his merit to other mainstreamers by wearing the anti-minimum wage and immigration-control badges. But who ever mentions property zoning and push-cart vending. There is a large dollop of class-bias in this posturing too.

    And now, a laugher question: Were the Neanderthals not too bright to let the Cro-Magnons into Europe?

    If letting superior people migrate into your country means second-class citizenship, is that in-migration is a good thing?

  40. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    31. May 2016 at 22:19

    “If letting superior people migrate into your country means second-class citizenship, is that in-migration is a good thing?”

    -Ambiguous. Ask the Malays, then Native Americans.

  41. Gravatar of Gary Anderson Gary Anderson
    31. May 2016 at 23:11

    As a sovereign nation, we have the right to protect our borders, but not to march 11 million men women and children to the borders. But it is true, big business wants a porous border.

    But Trump blew it when he said he would march 11 million illegals, most of whom work, out of this country. If most of them work, they can’t be the criminal element that Trump accused Mexico of sending.

    I despise everything Trump stands for. He is close to being without normal human responses. Serious stuff.

    But if you want a laugh, I wrote a little satire about him: http://www.examplesofglobalization.com/2016/05/donald-trump-threatened-with-scalping.html

  42. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    1. June 2016 at 00:19

    “Donald Trump On Climate Change: ‘I Believe It Goes Up And It Goes Down’”

    Next week:

    The Earth was created 5,001.3 years ago.

  43. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    1. June 2016 at 00:22

    The week after:

    Evolution has not been scientifically confirmed.

  44. Gravatar of Postkey Postkey
    1. June 2016 at 00:24

    A week later:

    The ‘Rapture’ is imminent.

  45. Gravatar of Thiago Ribeiro Thiago Ribeiro
    1. June 2016 at 00:35

    “As a sovereign nation, we have the right to protect our borders, but not to march 11 million men, women and children to the borders. But it is true, big business wants a porous border.”– Gary Anderson
    Can they be thrown in jail for breaking American law? If they can neither be deported nor be punished, you simply don’t have a border and immigration laws anymore except in name only. And I don’t think anyone wants to march them, they can be flown or bused or depending on distances. We are not talking abou the Bataan Death March here.

  46. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    1. June 2016 at 02:03


    Let’s have a President who can bring some excitement to Korea!

    Now you get it, Scott. Exactly my point. We need someone like Reagan who says let’s tier down this Evil Empire. Not someone boring and predictable like Hillary from whom you know already that she won’t do anything at all except cementing the status quo – or making things even worse.


    who could help unify the Korean peninsula.

    Kim talking about unification could actually be a step forward in this case. Don’t take anything about Trump so negative all the time.

  47. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    1. June 2016 at 02:37


    Ask the Native Americans.

    That’s just open borders gone Oooooops. Happens all the time.

  48. Gravatar of Saturos Saturos
    1. June 2016 at 04:47

    Dunno about insurmountable. Did you hear that Maduro just endorsed Sanders?

  49. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 05:15

    He didn’t resemble a banana republic dictator at all.

    See retired FSO Lewis Amselem on this topic. “has taken the opportunities that fell into her lap, e.g., her playboy husband became Governor of Arkansas and then President, and ably used them to advantage, e.g., a Senate seat, almost the Presidency, and now SecState. As the First Lady of Arkansas, she played the role required of her: she laundered bribes for her husband. That is what Whitewater was about. That was her role at the Rose Law Firm: she would collect and launder the payoffs. She “made” a fortune in cattle futures, right? OK, when will you pay me for that bridge? (Note: The GOP was too stupid to explain the Whitewater affair, and accepted the media line that it was “too complicated” for the public to understand. My Foreign Service friends and I who had spent years in places where that was the role of the First Lady figured it out instantly.)”

    I was grossly amusing that Webster Hubbell, disbarred lawyer, managed to clear about $800,000 in ‘consulting fees’ while he was awaiting sentencing.

    Then there was Billy Vote lo maximos‘s PR operation, which, as one observer put it, ‘pioneered the tactic of hiding the muck by concealing it behind a bigger pile of muck’.

    The one difference was that lousy cretins in charge of Latin countries have bastard children squirreled away. Billy Vote, due to his preference for sodomy, did not have any that anyone knew about.

  50. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 05:26

    Let me ask you this: Why is the topic always the evils of the minimum wage and immigration restrictions, but never why is push-cart vending universally criminalized in the U.S.? Why so much extremely stipulative property zoning?

    Pushcart vending is permitted where I grew up. You only see them downtown, though.

    See Mark Hinshaw on zoning: per Hinshaw, extreme dullness and intertia overtook planning bureaucracies and building inspectorates after the 2d World War, and you had local codes photocopied from model codes without modifications to take account of local conditions. An aspect of that was the advent of climate control technologies. One convention that irritates Hinshaw in particular has been unnecessary separation of residential and commercial / industrial uses. Per Hinshaw, you need to be assiduous about segregating heavy industry, but just about anything else can be nestled in with the right features to regulate traffic and noise.

  51. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 05:29

    One other thing. Cowen / Tabarrok are actually quite likely to chatter about things like occupational licensure. (Tabarrok’s complaint today is historic preservation codes). The other faculty are not invested in these issues). On the other hand, the ruin of campus cultures is a subject completely neglected.

  52. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 05:30

    Scott Freelander,

    That Tsunami stopping preacher and con man (I repeat myself) is hilarious. It’s no surprise he’s on Team Trump. Did he used to work in the Trump University boiler room as well?

    Steve Berman at RedState points out a Trump supporter’s reaction to the possible David French candidacy:
    https://twitter.com/RWDS1488/status/708081122375127040
    Classy, as always. But let’s not judge the man by his supporters.

    E. Harding,

    You write:

    “I consider him treasonous for taking control of the global militant Islamist movement, including re-creating the Islamic State, and using it to kill Americans.”

    What evidence would convince you that you’re wrong about that?

  53. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 05:36

    Obama talks like a Christian. However, by his policies, it’s more useful to see him as a Sunni Muslim than a Christian. I don’t care what his religion is, as long as he doesn’t insert it into his government.

    Recall Steven Sailer’s observation that Obama’s talent is in transmitting other people’s views, not in generating anything of his own. BO’s a standard issue professional class Democrat infected with what Mr. Sailer has referred to as ‘leapfrogging loyalties’. The Mercatus crew are no different, they just have a different idiom and different tropes, but the detritus of social class competition and subcultural competition is still there.

  54. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 05:39

    By the way, Trump says that judge should be “investigated”. This seems to be a pattern with him. But, it’s silly to say he resembles a banana republic dictator.

    The misbehavior of the courts has grown so gross that there’s not much Trump could ever do to top it. Most libertarians manifest a cud chewing indifference to this problem.

  55. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 05:44

    Cf., the Great Migration of Black Americans. Imagine something that disastrous

    Harding, the disaster was a cultural one occurring in the space between the ears of this nation’s urban pols. The disaster was not manifest in blacks moving in. The vast majority of blacks are working class people who cause no trouble or only cause nuisance problems. The disaster was the perfect storm generated by the black lumpenproletariat; Jerome Cavanaugh, John Lindsay et al; our doofus court system, and various and sundry black politicians. Social problems can be contained and neutralized if you have the right policies in place and the right people in charge.

  56. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 05:46

    Here is the sort of kook that’s a part of the Trump campaign:

    Just in case we needed a reminder that if you excise the status games, you and Mr. Brown have nothing to say.

  57. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 05:51

    Just out of curiosity, why do you oppose economic freedom? Why is it that, as a businessperson, for example, I’m not allowed to hire any adult I want?

    Because you want to import foreigners whose presence imposes costs on your neighbors and there’s almost never going to be a circumstance where you cannot hire given that you’ve a labor market with over 140 million people in it.

  58. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 05:57

    To be fair, there’s some disagreement among Trump supporters about whether or not it’s the right move to threaten to put David French’s adopted black daughter in a gas chamber: Matt Parrott, for example, argues that they should leave French’s family out of it.
    http://www.tradyouth.org/2015/09/french-family-drama/
    Still though, to sell this idea to their fellow Trumpsters, folks like Matt can let French’s lack of loyalty to the White race go unnoticed:

    “While David and Nancy are indeed both White, they’re what I refer to as WIBOs: White In Biology Only. They never claimed an allegiance to their ethno-racial kinsmen. They’re global cosmopolitan citizens of the world who are loyal to a handful of vague political abstractions and paperwork peccadillos regarding who is and is not a fellow “American.” America is a multi-racial empire that’s hostile to all of the organic traditional identities within its borders except for the privileged Jewish one, with a particular hostility toward our own.”

  59. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 06:04

    Republicans pushing to get a bill signed while Obama’s still president?
    https://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2016/06/trump-makes-unthinkable-happen-gopers.html

  60. Gravatar of Lorenzo from Oz Lorenzo from Oz
    1. June 2016 at 06:06

    It is going to be a long weary time in the what used to be my favourite comments section until that day in November …

  61. Gravatar of Lorenzo from Oz Lorenzo from Oz
    1. June 2016 at 06:16

    I am sure the Amerindians, Australian Aborigines, Maoris and Palestinians can all provide enthusiastic testimonials to the value of open borders …

    Just as the magnificent achievements of stateless societies testify that states and political action are not basic constituents of social success.

    States are not products of their societies: if one is fortunate there is a process of interactive creation, though a large proportion of inhabitants of state societies in history have lived under rule originally imposed from outside their society.

    Until economics can provide a fully developed theory of social stability and economic growth that explains the patterns we actually see, it cannot tell us the full implications of open borders. The pretence otherwise is just what Nick Rowe nicely calls the “autism of economics”, a wishing away of the hard questions.

  62. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    1. June 2016 at 06:37

    Trumpistas,

    Every meta-analysis I’ve seen concluded that immigration is net positive economically, even considering government benefits immigrants receive. And, the crime rate for immigrants is lower than for the indigenous population. So, where’s the evidence that there’s any net harm resulting from immigration?

    And, even if government benefits for immigrants were unaffordable, why not just cut the benefits and/or increase their taxes? Why restrict immigration?

  63. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    1. June 2016 at 06:42

    Lorenzo, You said:

    “Until economics can provide a fully developed theory of social stability and economic growth that explains the patterns we actually see, it cannot tell us the full implications of open borders. The pretence otherwise is just what Nick Rowe nicely calls the “autism of economics”, a wishing away of the hard questions.”

    I strongly agree.

    Ben, Why do you keep asking me why I don’t talk about issues that I in fact do talk about? (I.e. occupational licensing and zoning) Especially after I’ve told you many times that I talk about these issues? I don’t get it. If other bloggers don’t talk about those issues (and they do) then why not leave comments in their comment sections? What’s the point of commenting here?

    Everyone, Why the sudden discussion of “open borders”? Is Hillary proposing open borders? Is Bryan Caplan running for President? If not, why all the misleading comments?

    The current annual flow of immigrants is 0.3% of the US population, which is fairly small. Hillary is unlikely to change that number. Trump is unlikely to change that number. So what exactly are you guys getting all hysterical about?

  64. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 06:45

    Scott Freelander, you write:

    “So, where’s the evidence that there’s any net harm resulting from immigration?”

    Maybe their evidence comes from inside… you know, feelings:

    “You don’t sell products, benefits or solutions — you sell feelings,” according to the [Trump University] sales playbook.

  65. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    1. June 2016 at 06:47

    Scott raises another good point. Net immigration from Mexico has been slightly net negative for the last several years. Yet, Trump claims he wants to raise prices on goods from Mexico, and/or tax remittances to pay for a wall. These are both taxes that would, in some fashion and to some degree, that would be passed onto Americans.

  66. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    1. June 2016 at 06:50

    Scott,

    I favor open borders, so I guess I’m more libertarian than you are on that issue, yet I’m a Democrat.

  67. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 06:51

    “The current annual flow of immigrants is 0.3% of the US population, which is fairly small. Hillary is unlikely to change that number. Trump is unlikely to change that number. So what exactly are you guys getting all hysterical about?”

    Good point. It’s effectively a non-issue. But Scott, you’re forgetting the feelings it causes. That’s what this issue was always aimed at.

  68. Gravatar of Cliff Cliff
    1. June 2016 at 06:57

    Scott,

    Crime rates for immigrants are lower, however crime rates for 2nd and 3rd generation descendents of immigrants are higher.

    At the margin, in a country like the U.S. with loose labor laws GDP will rise with each immigrant (not per capita GDP). AT THE MARGIN.

    But 2nd and 3rd generation descendants of illegal immigrants, even 4th generations do worse than the 1st generation and much worse than the U.S. median. And immigrants have much higher TFR than natives. And they largely keep their original culture and live in segregated communities and vote for statist policies similar to the countries they came from.

    Ultimately they are the poison pill/trojan horse that kill the goose that lays the golden eggs…

  69. Gravatar of Cliff Cliff
    1. June 2016 at 07:02

    Do we really know what the flow of immigrants is when immigration is uncontrolled? Anyway I would like there to be MORE immigration. But use a Canadian or Australian model, not the model of letting in tens of millions of people who we have good reason to believe will never approach parity with current citizens.

    By the way I meant to say the 2nd generation does better than the 1st but nowhere near natives, and 3rd and 4th do significantly worse than the 2nd.

  70. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    1. June 2016 at 07:08

    Scott, I have mixed feelings on open borders. I think the policy is desirable on global utilitarian grounds, but I also think it may be too much to ask for voters of any one rich country to unilaterally open their borders. Too much sacrifice. At least it’s an open question. There’s also the issue of whether open borders can be combined with a welfare state—maybe not.

    On the other hand a big increase in immigration, to say 3 million a year, which roughly reflects the current skill distribution in the US, seems a no-brainer to me. The effect would be not much different from the 1950s baby boom. I think the “cohesion” problem only become serious when you have a big underclass, that’s why I suggest that immigrants roughly match the current skill distribution.

    Of course none of this has anything to do with Trump, who favors more H1b visas.

  71. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    1. June 2016 at 07:09

    Cliff, See my answer to Scott

  72. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    1. June 2016 at 07:17

    “Everyone, Why the sudden discussion of “open borders”? Is Hillary proposing open borders? Is Bryan Caplan running for President? If not, why all the misleading comments?”

    They’ve all fallen prey to Trump’s Masterly Persuasive skills.

    Just like her persuaded the Trump U judge to unseal court records.

    Oh wait.

  73. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 07:24

    Everyone, Why the sudden discussion of “open borders”? Is Hillary proposing open borders? Is Bryan Caplan running for President? If not, why all the misleading comments?

    I have news for you. Every party hostile to immigration enforcement favors open borders. That includes the entire Democratic congressional caucus, about 1/3 of the Republican caucus, 3 of the last 4 Republican presidential nominees, the Speaker of the House, the last 2 Democratic presidents, the entire public interest bar, the U.S. Catholic Conference, and the Mercatus Center.

  74. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 07:29

    On the other hand a big increase in immigration, to say 3 million a year, which roughly reflects the current skill distribution in the US, seems a no-brainer to me.

    No brainer because you’re not using any brains. The present-tense welfare benefits are minimal to the extant population and ‘diversity’ is something to which people have to craft adjustments, not something which benefits them.

    The effect would be not much different from the 1950s baby boom.

    There was no 1950s baby boom. The vast bulk of the increase in birth cohort sizes occurred between 1939 and 1952, with the bulk of labor market entry occurring between 1957 and 1970. And, of course, this was natural increase, so you did not have officious federal bureaucracies breathing down the neck of local school boards about bilingual education.

  75. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 07:31

    Anyway I would like there to be MORE immigration. But use a Canadian or Australian model, not the model of letting in tens of millions of people who we have good reason to believe will never approach parity with current citizens.

    Why? Any fertility deficits we suffer can be remedied with immigration flows a third their current size. As for the Canadian model, it’s a species of economic planning. Why not import settlers and let them find their niche (and lay off the Richard Lynn Kool-Aid).

  76. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 07:36

    Every meta-analysis I’ve seen concluded that immigration is net positive

    The present-tense benefits are minimal (one Borjas paper enumerated them at 0.1% of gdp) and take no account of the cost of any phenomenon which is not subject to economic modeling.

  77. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 07:36

    @Scott Freelander,

    “To the Anti-immigration crowd,

    Just out of curiosity, why do you oppose economic freedom? Why is it that, as a businessperson, for example, I’m not allowed to hire any adult I want?”

    This is the pro-immigration talking point. I’ve heard it, I actually agree with much of it.

    Have you really not heard the main talking points on the other side? I’m somewhat skeptical, but I’ll give a brief recap:

    To quote leading open border proponent Nathan Smith in his own words, “Certain American ideals would die of their own increasing impracticality, e.g., “equality of opportunity,” the social safety net, one person, one vote, or non-discrimination in employment.”

    Demographics have a right to govern and rule themselves and foreigners really don’t have any inherent natural rights to full voting membership.

    The premise of non-discrimination and equality of opportunity are wildy incompatible with non-intrusive or non-redistributionary immigration.

    There probably is some form of city state governance with no premise of non-discrimination, no group equality of opportunity, and no one man one vote style of governance that makes mass immigration reasonable, but that’s not what we have.

  78. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 07:38

    @Art Deco,

    “I’ve been banned from Marginal Revolution again. ”

    I enjoy your comments. Why don’t you run your own blog that is more than just an angry response to Marginal Revolution and Sumner and Econlog? I would be an eager follower.

    Also, why do you consider Steve Sailer to be disreputable?

  79. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 07:39

    To be fair, there’s some disagreement among Trump supporters about whether or not it’s the right move to threaten to put David French’s adopted black daughter in a gas chamber:

    Ordinarily, people would think it jejune to point out that in a country with 300 million people in it, you will find someone who says vicious things or tells gross jokes, but maybe you need to be told. Jon Stewart’s made a fancy living substituting ridicule for political discussion, but he at least has an excuse that he is intermittently amusing. What’s yours?

  80. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 07:47

    Also, why do you consider Steve Sailer to be disreputable?

    It’s something of an ironic reference. Sailer’s not a biological determinist. It’s just that biological factors are the only ones he fancies are interesting. (And, I suspect he’s overstating the case for them). As I read him, he’s got a thick hide and an amiable nuttin’ personal attitude toward the society which he observes, and does not wish any injuries or gross neglect of any parties.

    As I read him. Sailer’s got to earn a living, so he has to place his work with purveyors of opinion who are goofballs (Taki) or suffering a secular decline in their faculties (Wick Allison, who is just erratic, and Ron Unz, who is increasingly vicious). So, his work has to appear alongside the likes of Philip Giraldi and Paul Craig Roberts and he has to look the other way while Unz is advancing strange theses and then flailing around when knowledgeable parties (e.g. Judith Martz) take them apart.

    If Sailer’s a congenial enough fellow, his acolytes sure are not. I’ve been banned at the Unz Review, presumably for tangling with the regulars more than they’d like. Most of them loathe blacks and resent Jews and seek to injure both. Not a pretty picture. That’s who he hangs with.

  81. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 07:49

    “…but he at least has an excuse that he is intermittently amusing. What’s yours?”

    Well for one, your intermittently amusing reactions. Here’s more to be amused about:
    http://theresurgent.com/the-scientology-like-scam-the-klansman-and-donald-trump/
    http://theresurgent.com/reactions-to-the-frenchrevolution/

  82. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 07:57

    Excuse me, Janet Mertz, not Judith Martz.

  83. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 07:58

    Well for one, your intermittently amusing reactions.

    What, you’re inane because it’s funny when I point out you’re inane?

  84. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 08:11

    @sumner,

    “Everyone, Why the sudden discussion of “open borders”? Is Hillary proposing open borders? Is Bryan Caplan running for President? If not, why all the misleading comments?”

    It’s almost bizarre you don’t recognize the radical shifts of rules and conventions embodied by modern mass immigration that are basically alien to the majority of living humans.

    Even, say the Dalai Lama expresses horror at mass immigration to Europe. That’s not at all some obnoxious shock figure like Trump. That viewpoint is more what regular humans think.

    Sumner says he is not PC. He’s definitely not an extreme PC type and he fully objects to that, but he is quite comfortable with much of moderate political correctness as embodied by Obama and to a much lesser extent the GOP sans-Trump.

  85. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 08:14

    @Tom Brown,

    “To be fair, there’s some disagreement among Trump supporters about whether or not it’s the right move to threaten to put David French’s adopted black daughter in a gas chamber”

    This is outrageous. You should be ashamed for even posting that.

    I have an adopted black daughter and biological half black daughters that I love more than my own life and I’m a huge Trump fan. Trump does have completely legitimate black fans.

  86. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    1. June 2016 at 08:18

    Great link Tom.

    Erick Erickson’s piece sort of confirms what’s been obvious: Trump supporters bear an uncanny resemblance to Scientologists.

    Erickson is also right that Trump is his own worst enemy. He’s supposed to be this Master Negotiator.

    Yet, what could have been dumber than attacking that judge? Now there will be a drip, drip, drip of Trump U revelations that will kind of make the central anti Trump point:

    His candidacy is a scam much like Trump U was.

    Keep in mind that judge had actually been way too nice to Trump. I mean he postponed the trial till after the election. What is the chance of once of these victims winning a lawsuit against Trump if he won the election?

  87. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 08:21

    Why don’t you send your outrage to the origin of that tweet:
    https://twitter.com/RWDS1488/status/708081122375127040
    Plus you prove my point: there’s disagreement. Good for you.

  88. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    1. June 2016 at 08:25

    Trump’s dad was KKK, Trump U was started by scientologists, and other observations

    http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2016/06/donald-trump-haters-of-world-unite.html

  89. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    1. June 2016 at 08:27

    I have to say nobody does a better job of holding Trump accountable these days than conservative media like RedState, Jennifer Rubin, etc.

    You have to at least give them credit for realizing that Trump is an existential threat to the Republic

  90. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    1. June 2016 at 08:28

    “Everyone, Why the sudden discussion of “open borders”? Is Hillary proposing open borders?”

    Pretty much:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clintons-stance-on-immigration-is-a-major-break-from-obama/2016/03/10/6388a1f8-e700-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html

    “The effect would be not much different from the 1950s baby boom.”

    -A huge spike in campus radicalism, crime, and counterculture? I think we already have enough of that.

    “What evidence would convince you that you’re wrong about that?”

    -Preferably, a record of every word Obama has written or spoken, whether classified or unclassified, between March 14, 2013 and today, especially focusing on conversations with Erdogan and Netanyahu. Or some logical case I can’t imagine, but maybe someone else could, for why my claim is misrepresenting reality, based on Obama’s past actions.

    “So, where’s the evidence that there’s any net harm resulting from immigration?”

    -Have you looked at St. Louis, Detroit, Philadelphia, Indianapolis, etc. lately? Or any Black-run city in the U.S. North? This is what open borders looks like, except replace the Black Americans with Congolese.

    “The disaster was the perfect storm generated by the black lumpenproletariat; Jerome Cavanaugh, John Lindsay et al; our doofus court system, and various and sundry black politicians.”

    -Has any of that disappeared? And would their reactions have been any different if the migrants were from the Congo rather than Kentucky and Mississippi?

    “Social problems can be contained and neutralized if you have the right policies in place and the right people in charge.”

    -Maybe. But there’s no guarantee this will be commonplace.

  91. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 08:47

    “What evidence would convince you that you’re wrong about that?”

    -Preferably, a record of every word Obama has written or spoken, whether classified or unclassified, between March 14, 2013 and today, especially focusing on conversations with Erdogan and Netanyahu.

    Is that all? How very reasonable of you.

  92. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 09:06

    Trump supporters bear an uncanny resemblance to Scientologists.

    No, they bear an uncanny resemblance to whichever disreputable group pops into their detractors’ heads – to their detractors.

  93. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 09:08

    Trump’s dad was KKK,

    His father was arrested in 1927 proximate to a Klan event. You guys are scraping it.

  94. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 09:15

    But there’s no guarantee this will be commonplace.

    It’s as guaranteed to be successful, and less intrusive, than attempting to treat Southern share croppers and tenant farmers like Kolkhoz members bound to the land. Detroit’s decline may have been multisource, but their were two key decision points: Jerome Cavanaugh’s inauguration as mayor and Coleman Young’s inauguration 12 years later. Both had plans for more lethargic law enforcement. If you seek their monument, all you have to do is go there and have a look around. Detroit apologists talk about industrial decline. That did not help, but Cleveland and Buffalo were hit a good deal harder than Detroit and 3d tier cities like Scranton / Wilkes-Barre harder still. None of these loci have the quality of life deficits you see in Detroit.

  95. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 09:25

    Has any of that disappeared? And would their reactions have been any different if the migrants were from the Congo rather than Kentucky and Mississippi?

    You’ve conflated discussion of two problems which are quite distinct. One would be the adjustment problems which derive from immigration. The other is coping with the black lumpenproletariat. The latter problem is a given, or as John Derbyshire put it, we’ve been ‘diverse’ since 1619, no need to add to it. The black lumpenproletariat, who constitute perhaps 2% of the national population, can be dealt with if you’ve got police forces and courts with a good institutional culture and schools with a good institutional culture. Our problem is that we haven’t got that. Unless you’re planning to deport problem blacks to the Congo, it makes no sense to discuss this problem coincident with a discussion of migration patterns.

    We do not actually get many migrants from Tropical and Southern Africa and the ones we do get tend to be English speaking off the boat and fairly skilled. An example would be the nursing home employees who looked after my aunt in her last months, one from Ethiopia and one from Ghana. The real anxiety re crime control concerns Mexicans, Central Americans, and Puerto Ricans, all of whom hail from high-crime societies. See Mr. Sailer on this point: the behavior of mestizos from Mexico seems to be quite context dependent – i.e. sensitive to the regime in law enforcement (Puerto Ricans tend to have much worse social metrics). Loads on law enforcement are a concern re Mexican migration, but one of several.

  96. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 09:27

    As far as “uncanny resemblances” go, there’s something about these two that brings that to mind.

    I knew I’ve seen that look somewhere before:
    https://youtu.be/aiZO5db5Eys?t=15

  97. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 09:29

    Yet, what could have been dumber than attacking that judge?

    If he can manage to reduce the credibility of the judge and his social unassailiblity, it is not dumb at all.

    I can see your point re Trump U, but you’re asking too much if you’re asking people to trust the federal judiciary no questions asked. Their frauds and abuses are too manifest.

  98. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 09:33

    Trump does have completely legitimate black fans.

    Trump’s signature issue is immigration control, which works to benefit blacks. The older generation of vociferous and elite blacks was amply populated with immigration skeptics (e.g. Thomas Sowell), and effective immigration skeptics (see Coretta King, Barbara Jordan).

  99. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    1. June 2016 at 09:40

    “We do not actually get many migrants from Tropical and Southern Africa and the ones we do get tend to be English speaking off the boat and fairly skilled.”

    -I know. That would change ~2 days after the beginning of a de jure open borders regime.

    “Unless you’re planning to deport problem blacks to the Congo, it makes no sense to discuss this problem coincident with a discussion of migration patterns.”

    -Why not? Pointing to the diversity we’ve had since 1619 as a miniature version of the diversity we would have under open borders is not something I see a problem with.

  100. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 10:06

    Why not? Pointing to the diversity we’ve had since 1619 as a miniature version of the diversity we would have under open borders is not something I see a problem with.

    Except it is not, at least not precisely. The problems in the black population are a consequence of a very distinct history interacting with contemporary institutions. Institutions are not overwhelmed by the black lumpenproletariat. Rather, institutions have been run by people who did not care to deal with the problem and sometimes even to acknowledge it.

    The problem with a open borders regime would be the disorder which would arise from having a mass of converging foreigners with scant history with each other swamping the extant institutions, and this would be a problem even if you dismantled common provision entirely. It’s a reasonable wager the result would be just as disorderly as New York ca. 1905, whether the migrants came from countries with a great deal of social pathology (e.g. El Salvador) or countries with very little (e.g. China). Normal homicide rates in non-Russian Europe are about 1.2 per 100,000. They were many multiples of that in the New York of 1905.

  101. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    1. June 2016 at 10:09

    “His father was arrested in 1927 proximate to a Klan event. You guys are scraping it.”

    If this were an isolated factoid, maybe. But then you consider his own amnesia about who the KKK is in that interview and David Duke and the others that support him and then the fact that he said this about Africans just last October, and it kind of forms a narrative.

    http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2016/06/donald-trump-africans-are-lazy-good-at.html

    Then there’s Trump’s old buddy Roy Cohn as related by Peter Manso, who sat next to Trump at dinner in 1981:

    “So far I hadn’t engaged, really, hanging back as I usually would do early on in a reporting assignment, but that changed when we all sat down to eat. Cohn had put me beside Trump. Back then he was years away from becoming The Donald, but he was already the boyish-faced real estate mogul, habitué of Le Cirque and staple of Page Six. In the weeks that followed this dinner, I would learn more and more about his unusually close relationship with Cohn—a relationship crucial to understanding each of them.”

    “The two met in 1973 when Trump, then 27, and his father were being sued by the Justice Department for housing discrimination. Cohn counter-attacked, accusing the federal prosecutors of using “Gestapo-like tactics.” Later, Cohn secured for Trump massive tax abatement deals from the city for Trump Tower and even introduced Trump to Roger Stone, Richard Nixon’s dirty trickster who’s currently The Donald’s in and out chief braintruster. Cohn was legally indispensable but socially indispensable, too, introducing Trump to nightclub owners, media heavyweights and underworld figures. And, of course, there were the politicos, which included most of the city’s major elected officials and a handful of New York City judges who were said to be at Cohn’s beck and call 24/7. His win-at-any-cost style, brashness and love for the spotlight made an impact on the younger Trump.”

    “Trump was sitting to my left, Ivana opposite us, beside Cohn, the others seated around the table, and all of them, I gathered, friends for years. Di Portanova (a.k.a. “Ricky the Playboy” if you read the tabs) was a Cohn client as well.”

    “Things got off to a happy start with the perennially tanned Cohn playing toastmaster: There was a toast to Ronald Reagan, the still very new president, and another to Alfonse D’Amato, the rookie senator from New York. Then Cohn introduced me as “the Playboy man in our midst,” which obliged me to rise and take a bow. When he finally sat down, the food was served by two of Cohn’s office boys who, I’d already heard through the grapevine, were, as a group, Cohn’s lovers; one of whom our genial host openly addressed as “Saboo.” Why Saboo? Because, as I later found out from Roy himself, the dark skinned Filipino fit “the profile.”

    “Was Cohn a racist? Of course. Roy Cohn was an anti-Semite, a homophobe, a woman hater and of course an anti-Communist. He harbored a bundle of thinly concealed prejudices that he’d trot out whenever one or more of them worked for him, whenever they were useful. What else is new?”

    http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2016/05/is-donald-trump-racist.html

  102. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    1. June 2016 at 11:54


    Why the sudden discussion of “open borders”? Is Hillary proposing open borders? Is Bryan Caplan running for President? If not, why all the misleading comments?

    It’s not misleading. The US borders would be a lot more open without people like Trump, certain media outlets and some other politicians by the GOP. It’s not really about the wall, oftentimes it’s simply about regression to the mean.

  103. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 12:06

    @Mike Sax,

    “If this were an isolated factoid, maybe.”

    You are faulting Trump for racist behaviors of his father. President Obama’s father has expressed more extreme overtly racist ideology and did so quite formally as a politician of Kenya. Additionally, these men didn’t choose their fathers and can’t be held accountable for their father’s actions.

    “But then you consider his own amnesia about who the KKK is in that interview and David Duke and the others that support him and then the fact that he said this about Africans just last October, and it kind of forms a narrative.”

    Similarly with Obama. He has this history and pronounced pattern of associating with black nationalist and black power people, causes, and movements that target hostility on whites and embrace victimhood and oppression as the dominant language and identity of western civilization. I don’t think Sumner and this crowd endorse that, but they are quite eager to overlook it.

  104. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 12:08

    If this were an isolated factoid, maybe. But then you consider his own amnesia about who the KKK is in that interview and David Duke and the others that support him and then the fact that he said this about Africans just last October, and it kind of forms a narrative.

    No, you have a narrative and are dishonestly attempting to shoehore disparate bits of data into it, data which are themselves fabricated. He does not have any amnesia about what the Klan was and it matters not one whit that some random person has endorsed him.

    The rest of your verbiage demonstrates that he once retained Roy Cohn as his attorney. So did Benson Ford. So did the Catholic archdiocese at one point. So did elements of La Cosa Nostra. Cohn was a sleazebag (and that eventually got him disbarred), but he made a good living for a long time because he was useful for certain purposes. And he know a great many people. Sidney Zion once said that Nicolas von Hoffman was the only reporter of his (Zion’s) acquaintance who had never met Roy Cohn. He was useful for Zion, too, as a source. Cannot figure how you came up with the idea that Cohn was an anti-semite. You fancy David Schine was as well?

  105. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 12:25

    @Scott Freelander,

    “in ’08 Obama was attacked for attending a christian church for 18 years that preached ‘liberation theology’.”

    It wasn’t just “liberation theology” it was “black liberation theology”:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liberation_theology

    Specifically, it was this church which was a “church formally founded on the vision of Black liberation theology.”:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_United_Church_of_Christ

    You actually edited that to be completely race neutral and I imagine you mentally edit Obama and any other signs of black racism to be completely race neutral.

    “Making an issue of Jeremiah Wright didn’t work.”

    That is true. Direct hard ties linking Obama to militant black racism didn’t stop voters from voting for him and didn’t stop people like you from mentally editing out any evidence of racism.

    “So, after the election, Obama was suddenly either a muslim, an atheist, or even in the minds of some fools, both.”

    Obama himself claimed to be non-religious and basically said he was only involved with churches for political reasons. Later, he claimed to have found God and be a full believing Christian, and obviously you can’t prove or disprove that. But even his own fans don’t believe he’s a terribly passionate Christian. And he’s obviously politically spoken up for foreign Muslims and Muslim rights in the US, and gone to great lengths to avoid saying “Islamic terror” or avoid tying the Muslim faith to Islamic terrorism in any way.

  106. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 12:35

    Leon H. Wolf of RedState:

    “Here’s the thing: to believe that Trump is as blameless as he portrays himself, you have to engage in a humongous amount of suspension of disbelief. Any person possessed of even marginal intelligence would look at the facts as presented and conclude that Trump University was a scam, and that Trump never intended to donate to any veterans group until the Washington Post shamed him into it. You have to be willing to give Trump significantly more of the benefit of the doubt than you would give any other ordinary person who wasn’t, say, in your immediate family.”

    Agree? Disagree?

  107. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 12:37

    @Art Deco,

    Your complaints against Sailer are about the other writers he associates with and his fan base, and not about anything Sailer himself writes. That is a weak criticism.

  108. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 12:41

    Donald came out with a video to put our minds at ease over the Trump U thing:
    http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/06/01/trump-campaign-releases-video-defending-trump-university…-scam/

  109. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 12:46

    @Tom Brown,

    “to believe that Trump is as blameless as he portrays himself…”

    Most Trump fans don’t think he’s a blameless saint. Hillary fans don’t think she is a saint either.

    No one will defend Trump University. Most Hillary fans know she was wrong in the email scandal. People are still motivated by these figures. Most voters just vote for the option horrifies them the least, which is the norm.

  110. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    1. June 2016 at 14:30

    @Massimo,

    I agree. However the level of horror for me personally (as a former swing voter) is at an all time high. Not that it can’t get worse: There’s always SMOD:

    https://twitter.com/smod2016/status/707771736566079488

    https://twitter.com/smod2016/status/734008880070418434

    And not that you care, but I can’t honestly think of a single candidate for US president in our history from a major party (or viable independent run) that I’d less like to hand over our nuclear codes to than Trump. That includes primary candidates. That includes Goldwater, Nixon, the Bushes, Wallace, Sanders… all of them.

    I can understand (some of) the aversion to Clinton, but as P.J. O’Rourke said, she’s “within normal parameters.”

    You probably don’t care, but my dad turns 99 years old this summer. He’s in good shape mentally (and physically, considering). He’s had a full life: fond memories of Coolidge as a kid, Great Depression, rise of Stalin & Hitler, WWII vet, career as engineer, cold war. He’s been a life long Republican, and this is the 1st time I’ve seen him repulsed and actually worried about the GOP nominee.

    If nothing else Trump is a very risky candidate. What about our current circumstances warrants such a risk? Inflation is low, illegal immigration is low, unemployment is low, crime is low, the economy is growing, we are not in a war with an adversary that can threaten our existence, gas is relatively cheap, the housing market has recovered, plagues and pestilence are at a minimum, goods and services are readily available. Why the conspiracy theories, dread and hysteria? What justifies a huge risk? On both sides: either with Bernie or Trump supporters?

  111. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 14:31

    Your complaints against Sailer are about the other writers he associates with and his fan base, and not about anything Sailer himself writes. That is a weak criticism.

    I’m not criticizing him much. Like all of us past a certain age, he’s in a cleft stick. He knows who signs the checks and the clicks are the proximate cause of him getting paid, even if the bulk of his commenters are awful. Could be worse. He could have Jim Hoft’s commenters.

    I have a strong suspicion, though, that a certain amount of Sailer-talk is blarney. John Derbyshire does not have any background in biology or tests-and-measurements psychology beyond the autodidact’s and Sailer cannot have all that much. In different ways, they seem to live by the observation that you offer your opinions with sufficient self-confidence and people will take it as knowledge rather than opinion. Sailer’s an occasional promoter of Richard Lynn (though not lock, stock, and barrel the way one commenter I can think of), which an examination of Lynn’s bibliographies should persuade you is not wise.

  112. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 14:36

    I can understand (some of) the aversion to Clinton, but as P.J. O’Rourke said, she’s “within normal parameters.”

    She isn’t. And he did not say she was within normal parameters. He said her positions were wrong within normal parameters. (I do not think that’s the correct use of the term ‘parameter’). O’Rourke professes to be worried that Trump will fire off nuclear warheads. At whom, he does not specify.

  113. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 14:39

    What about our current circumstances warrants such a risk? Inflation is low, illegal immigration is low, unemployment is low, crime is low,

    Neither the stock nor the flow of illegal immigration is low. Crime is not low, either. That a problem has been more severe in the past does not make it incondquential now. Index crime rates are about where they were in 1970, which is not low. Unemployment is low, in part because people have departed the labor force for various reasons.

  114. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 14:43

    What justifies a huge risk? On both sides: either with Bernie or Trump supporters?

    How is this a ‘huge risk’? Both men have to get past Congress, which is an idiot wheel-spinning institution when there isn’t any candy in something for members or their favorite donors. Both men have a history of managing agencies or enterprises successfully. Any President gets in that chair realizes that you’re constrained a great deal in your foreign policy maneuver (which has not prevented BO from doing the crappiest things he could manage to do).

  115. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 14:47

    No one will defend Trump University. Most Hillary fans know she was wrong in the email scandal.

    No, partisan Democrats excuse everything (see the IRS mess). The real estate seminars strike me as a con that should have been beneath him, but I do remember that the media seem to be channeling the plaintiffs lawyers in a class action suit and even the media can locate and quote people who took the seminars and were not dis-satisfied.

  116. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 14:55

    “So, after the election, Obama was suddenly either a muslim, an atheist, or even in the minds of some fools, both.”

    He sat in Jeremiah Wright’s church for 20 years. Mr. Sailer points out there is no shortage of black congregations in Chicago, and he settles on this contrived, political Africanisant body. His mother was a vociferous atheist as an adolescent, his stepfather was by all appearances (see liver problems) a ‘statistical Muslim’ (the modal type in Indonesia), and by some accounts grandaddy Stanley joined a Unitarian congregation because you get ‘five religions for the price of one’. So, he’s on foundations of sand. Instead of doing something serious or joining his mother-in-law’s congregation, he lands on Jeremiah Wright. It’s like just about everything else he’s ever done, strange and frivolous at the same time.

  117. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 15:19

    @Tom Brown,

    Concern over Trump using nuclear weapons seem completely exaggerated. Trump does not want to destroy the world.

    I obviously don’t know your father, but I’m absolutely sorry to hear that many lifelong Republicans such as him are so disappointed by Trump’s nomination. I have family members that are the same way. Their upset is that Trump is obnoxious and offensive, which are superficial public demeanor traits.

    “If nothing else Trump is a very risky candidate. What about our current circumstances warrants such a risk?”

    Mass demographic change throughout the US, Europe, and the world, that is largely planned and coordinated by elites seems bad. Massive redistribution efforts, massive expansion of federal government. PC has metastazied. The left has proven quite successful at bullying and censoring any conflicting ideas. Our culture has adopted this identity of permanent victimhood with whites and conservatives as the ultimate villains. I don’t expect Trump to work miracles or fix everything.

    At least Trump will appoint principled conservative supreme court justices, push a principled conservative tax plan, and not do the crazy things that Hillary would do like push for aggressive military interventions, push ridiculous economic ideas like a $15 federal minimum wage, and more serious efforts to enact massive federal government expansion in health care and education.

  118. Gravatar of John L. John L.
    1. June 2016 at 16:06

    “At least Trump will appoint principled conservative supreme court justices, push a principled conservative tax plan.”
    The one that will cut everyone’s taxes, the deficit and not dramatically affect expenditures (it is the one Republican candidates are running on since 1980).

  119. Gravatar of Thiago Ribeiro Thiago Ribeiro
    1. June 2016 at 16:09

    “Trump’s lead among evil dictators is now virtually insurmountable”
    How is he doing with the key non-evil dictator voters?

  120. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    1. June 2016 at 16:11

    Trumpistas,

    The responses I’m getting to my questions about evidence for the supposed harm immigration causes are not actually based on any evidence and seem more like assumptions about problems with “others”. This strikes me as nothing more than blind bigotry. Why am I wrong?

  121. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    1. June 2016 at 17:28

    Harding, You said:

    “So, where’s the evidence that there’s any net harm resulting from immigration?”

    -Have you looked at St. Louis, Detroit, Philadelphia, Indianapolis, etc. lately?”

    Only a Trump supporter could come up with that one. The American cities with the largest number of immigrants tend to be booming. In many cases, such as New York City, the big drop in crime is largely attributed to the huge inflow of migrants. In contrast, the cities with the fewest immigrants tend to be doing the worst.

    So when I ask you for evidence against immigration, you cite the relatively poor performance of the group of cities that have the fewest immigrants. Okaaay . . .

    Only a Trump supporter could come up with such a perfectly idiotic argument.

    Massimo, What is “moderate political correctness”? Civility?

  122. Gravatar of Major.Freedom Major.Freedom
    1. June 2016 at 17:54

    Scott Freelander:

    Trumpistas are not close the borders down anti-immigration.

    They are anti illegal immigration.

    But you don’t care, because you onto want to signal to others you’re a Trump hater.

  123. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 17:55

    The comment posted at 15:12 was not posted by me and the moderator would do me a courtesy by deleting it.

    The person with a history of appropriating my handle (and, IIRC, Harding’s) does post here on occasion. There is also an anti-semite who has followed me from the boards at Crisis magazine who posts here as well under an alter ego.

  124. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    1. June 2016 at 18:01

    Art, OK, I blacklisted him, whoever it was. The last thing I need is more Art Deco comments.

  125. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 18:39

    I appreciate that.

  126. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    1. June 2016 at 18:48

    “The American cities with the largest number of immigrants tend to be booming.”

    -Guess what? Which city in 1980 had the highest median income for full-time workers between the ages of 18 and 34?

    Flint, Michigan.

    Today most famous for the Flint water crisis and having the highest homicide rate of any city in the country.

    The second-highest city?

    Detroit. Today most famous for being the major city with the highest proportion of its residents Black and the highest homicide rate to boot.

    Funny how these things work.

    https://www.aei.org/publication/new-census-bureau-data-young-adults-provide-fascinating-insights-forces-creative-destruction/

    “In many cases, such as New York City, the big drop in crime is largely attributed to the huge inflow of migrants.”

    -Nope; you’re confusing NYC, in which crime collapsed mostly due to better policing, with D.C., in which most of the crime collapse can, indeed, be attributed to gentrification.

    “So when I ask you for evidence against immigration, you cite the relatively poor performance of the group of cities that have the fewest immigrants.”

    -There were hardly any Black people in Detroit in the 1920s. They mostly arrived between the 1930s and 1970s. This is what perfect open borders looks like on a small scale. Let’s dispel with this fiction that mass within-country migration, in the long run, is any different from mass between-country migration. If you can’t get that, or think it’s idiotic just because you can’t get that, well, your loss.

  127. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 18:59

    @Scott Freelander,

    “Trumpistas,

    The responses I’m getting to my questions about evidence for the supposed harm immigration causes are not actually based on any evidence and seem more like assumptions about problems with “others”. This strikes me as nothing more than blind bigotry. Why am I wrong?”

    You didn’t ask for evidence of harmful consequences of immigration, you asked, “why do you oppose economic freedom?”

    Arguably, denying a foreigner the right to immigrate is similar to denying a university applicant admission, or denying a job applicant a job offer, in that they are all by definition forms of exclusion and arguably bigotry. Labeling Trump supporters a pejorative Trumpista is a light form of bigotry.

    @Sumner,

    “Only a Trump supporter could come up with that one. The American cities with the largest number of immigrants tend to be booming.”

    First, E Harding explicitly referred to those cities as examples of the Great Migration of black US citizens to highlight inter-ethnic conflict with negative outcomes. You know his point and are just making an easy retort.

    Secondly, it’s quite obvious that people want to move to successful geographies, so there is causation from booming areas to incoming migration.

    Thirdly, there are unhappy immigration scenarios. You know what they are, and pointing them out is somewhat tasteless and mean. Just like pointing out students that shouldn’t have been admitted to a university or pointing out employees that shouldn’t have been hired is similarly tasteless and mean. E Harding’s point on black citizen migration is true but also mean and bigoted.

    “Massimo, What is “moderate political correctness”? Civility?”

    Editing “black liberation theology” to just “liberation theology”. Considering the black nationalism and racism of Barack and Michelle Obama as harmless and status quo, but losing your mind on the arguably less aggressive racism of Trump.

  128. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    1. June 2016 at 19:33

    “Just like pointing out students that shouldn’t have been admitted to a university”

    -Speaking of that…

    http://www.vox.com/2016/5/31/11785864/reach-higher-initiative

    Seriously, click on the link. You’ll groan.

  129. Gravatar of Thiago Ribeiro Thiago Ribeiro
    1. June 2016 at 20:14

    “E Harding’s point on black citizen migration is true but also mean and bigoted.”
    Is it?

    bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
    bigoted play \-gə-təd\ adjective
    bigotedly adverb — http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

  130. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    1. June 2016 at 20:43

    Nope; you’re confusing NYC, in which crime collapsed mostly due to better policing, with D.C., in which most of the crime collapse can, indeed, be attributed to gentrification.

    Not a whole lot. The raw number of murders in the District of Columbia fell by 377 between 1991 and 2014. The raw number in the suburban counties bounces around some, but one can take the median of a multi-year period. There’s been a decline of 40 homicides per year over the time span in question in Prince George’s COunty, of 10 per year in Montgomery County, and a decline in the five principal Virginia jurisdictions as well (it would appear on the order of 15 cases a year). Raw homicides in greater Washington have actually fallen to around 240 per year, or just above 5 per 100,000, near the national mean. The jurisdictions with the highest homicide rates are the District (16 per 100,000) and Prince Georges (10 per 100,000).

  131. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    1. June 2016 at 21:22

    Thiago Ribeiro

    “Is it?”

    Yes. E Harding suggested negative judgements, stereotypes, and opinions of the black ethnic group. He is faulting them for deterioration of various US neighborhoods. I’m not saying he’s wrong, I’m saying he’s bigoted.

  132. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    2. June 2016 at 03:32

    More from Bill Weld, Gary Jonnson’s running mate:

    “William Weld, the vice-presidential nominee for the Libertarian Party, said Wednesday that he believed Hillary Clinton had done nothing “criminal” in using personal email as secretary of state.”

    “Mr. Weld spoke during a wide-ranging interview alongside Gary Johnson, a former governor of New Mexico and the Libertarian Party’s presidential nominee. Both secured the Libertarian nomination Sunday at the party’s contentious convention in Orlando, Fla., over the weekend.”

    “The remarks from Mr. Weld, who served as the governor of Massachusetts as a Republican in the 1990s, are deeply at odds with criticisms from Republicans over Mrs. Clinton’s tenure at the State Department and the scandal involving her use of a private server for all work emails.”

    “His comments could also fuel further skepticism among some Libertarian voters who view Mr. Weld’s right-of-center years as governor with suspicion. They could also inflame criticism that he is a de facto stalking horse for Mrs. Clinton, the Democratic front-runner for the nomination.”

    “Mr. Weld gave a single-word response about whether Mrs. Clinton was a good secretary of state: “Yes.”

    “He was equally succinct when asked if her use of a private email server, now the subject of an F.B.I. investigation, was a legitimate issue.”

    “No,” said Mr. Weld, a former prosecutor, adding that he had read of no evidence that would clear the bar for criminality. “I think it’s a nonstarter.”

    “He was noncommittal as to whether it showed poor judgment on behalf of Mrs. Clinton, but pointed out that Colin Powell had also used private email while secretary of state under George W. Bush — a point often made by Mrs. Clinton’s aides.”

    “Mr. Weld has been friendly with Mrs. Clinton since they worked together on the impeachment team of the House Judiciary Committee during the presidency of Richard M. Nixon. He praised her as “kind” and smart.”

    “He saved his harshest words for Donald J. Trump, the Republican Party’s presumptive nominee, whom Mr. Weld has excoriated for anti-immigrant speech.”

    “The wall is a joke,” Mr. Weld said of Mr. Trump’s vow to build a wall along the border with Mexico. But, he added, “I would say it was a joke if it didn’t remind me so much of the Berlin Wall.”

    “He compared Mr. Trump, who has an ardent base of supporters, to Jim Jones, the cult leader whose followers committed suicide by the hundreds, drinking poison at his urging in Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978.”

    “Everybody was so fanatically devoted to him that they drank the Kool Aid — and it wasn’t particularly good Kool Aid,” Mr. Weld said. “The analogy there is just the ability to stimulate a fanatical following. And that’s fine, but if the fanatical following leads to fanatical behavior, that’s not fine.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/02/us/politics/libertarian-party-gary-johnson-william-weld.html?ref=politics&_r=0

    Like Jim Jones, 1978. Certainly Trump U was not great Koolaid for the 40,000 people who lost thousands of dollars.

    Elsewhere. Mr. Weld evokes Anne Frank hiding in her attic.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/william-weld-trump-immigration-223773

  133. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    2. June 2016 at 03:58

    Massimo,

    Comparing limiting immigration to limiting the hiring of job applicants or university admissions is totally bogus. Employers and universities have limited resources, and must make such decisions. Meta-analyses suggest the opposite is true with regard to immigration. By expanding a supply input, ie. cheap labor, the economy, including the job market, also expands in turn, meaning the majority of both indigenous and immigrants are better off.

  134. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    2. June 2016 at 04:05

    Meta-analyses suggest the opposite is true with regard to immigration.

    Rubbish.

  135. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    2. June 2016 at 04:08

    Trumpistas,

    What I find most interesting about all of this is that I don’t see the old lump of labor fallacy on display. In fact, I haven’t seen one argument claiming immigration makes us worse off economically. So, what should I think of people who want to limit our economic growth and my freedom to hire based merely on totally unsupported sociological assumptions(best case for you), or simple outright bigotry?

    As we’ve pivoted in eastern Europe and Asia to commit more resources to balance of power considerations, people like you want to ensure we’ll be in a weaker position going forward. Not only is this anti-American, in my opinion, but it’s outright treason.

    Why am I wrong?

  136. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    2. June 2016 at 04:10

    OK, Weld’s a Democratic Party press agent. Why does Johnson want him knocking about?

  137. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    2. June 2016 at 05:26

    Weld actually sounds like a more sincere libertarian. All these alleged libertarians think the private sector can do everything better than the public sector: except email security.

    And the fact is that the State Department government email system is pretty porous anyway.

  138. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    2. June 2016 at 06:45

    And the fact is that the State Department government email system is pretty porous anyway.

    I see you’re a Democratic Party press agent too. See Lewis Amselem (Diplomad 2.0) regarding what would have been the consequences had he, while in the Foreign Service, gotten his own private server located in someone’s water closet. Or consider that Gen. Petraeus was prosecuted for showing his office diaries to someone who had security clearances.

  139. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    2. June 2016 at 07:02

    I’m not talking about Democratic press agents, I’m talking about what libertarians claim to believe when it’s convenient

    This ‘someone with security clearances’ just happened to be his mistress by the way.

  140. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    2. June 2016 at 09:21

    @Scott Freelander,

    “In fact, I haven’t seen one argument claiming immigration makes us worse off economically.”

    First, you didn’t ask this. You asked a very different question and got answers aligned with that.

    If you told the stories of people and groups that were denied university admission, and cornered university faculty and administrators and pressured them to justify their harsh exclusion with long lists of personal negative attributes, and enumerated the arrays of opportunities and experiences that the people were being denied, you would make them look bad. Universities cherish their right to very silently reject students and will rightfully evade pressure to declare negatives and justifications of their reject decisions.

    If an outsider were able to somehow override a university’s reject decision and grant rejected individuals 100% full admission status, and then celebrate cherry picked success stories, you could make the admissions process look evil.

    There are obvious examples of immigration scenarios that had negative economics effects, where immigrant groups have required large amounts of social services, yet still had high levels of unemployment and crime, mixed with bitter ethnic conflict, accusations of racism and discrimination and exclusion, etc.

    You know what these examples are. Demanding immigration restrictionists to name these groups and enumerate their negative attributes is a trap.

    @Mike Sax,

    “I would say it was a joke if it didn’t remind me so much of the Berlin Wall.”

    Do the locked doors on houses designed to keep strangers out remind you of the locked doors kidnappers use to imprison their victims? There’s a _big_ difference between a wall to stop people from fleeing and a wall to keep foreigners out.

    http://4385k233v08q1gpmcf1e5z5k.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/wallcartoon.jpg

    “He compared Mr. Trump, who has an ardent base of supporters, to Jim Jones, the cult leader whose followers committed suicide by the hundreds, drinking poison at his urging in Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978.”

    On this very site, Trump is being compared to Hitler, then Mussolini, then Hugo Chavez, then Putin, Berlusconi, now Jim Jones? This is silly! What’s next? Pol Pot? Jeffrey Dahmer? The Abominable Snow Monster?

    You could turn these absurd stretches of “Donald Trump is just like [outlandish historic figure]” into a comedy skit.

  141. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    2. June 2016 at 09:52

    I’m not talking about Democratic press agents, I’m talking about what libertarians claim to believe when it’s convenient

    Your example was flagrantly silly, but since you’re in tune with the moderator, you’re the one not called a moron.

    This ‘someone with security clearances’ just happened to be his mistress by the way.

    She still had security clearances. He was prosecuted anyway. HRC likely will not be, because the courts are now political weapons.

  142. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    2. June 2016 at 09:54

    You could turn these absurd stretches of “Donald Trump is just like [outlandish historic figure]” into a comedy skit.

    Yes you could, but if the perps had any sense of the comedy, they would be making better analogies.

  143. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    2. June 2016 at 09:56

    “The wall is a joke,” Mr. Weld said of Mr. Trump’s vow to build a wall along the border with Mexico. But, he added, “I would say it was a joke if it didn’t remind me so much of the Berlin Wall.”

    This man was a federal prosecutor, Governor of Massachusetts, and then worked in I-banking. He would not have been those things without a modicum of intelligence, no? So what are his views on immigration enforcement? Groupthink. Nothing more, nothing less.

  144. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    2. June 2016 at 10:38

    “based merely on totally unsupported sociological assumptions”

    -My example of Black-majority northern cities as a small-scale and rough analogy to what Open Borders would look like is hardly “totally unsupported sociological assumptions”. And, as Art Deco pointed out, the problems with open borders are, in the short-term, even worse than this, even for purely European migrants:

    http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=31749#comment-787250

    “In fact, I haven’t seen one argument claiming immigration makes us worse off economically.”

    http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=31749#comment-788052

    -Do you read my comments, Scott? Ignoring mine and Art’s arguments is hardly a substitute for dealing with them.

  145. Gravatar of Christian List Christian List
    2. June 2016 at 11:43

    Ryan: “I’ll be voting for Donald Trump”

    http://www.businessinsider.de/paul-ryan-ill-be-voting-for-donald-trump-this-fall-2016-6

  146. Gravatar of Scott Freelander Scott Freelander
    2. June 2016 at 12:59

    Harding,

    I’m reading your comments, but what you’re calling evidence is certainly nothing I’d call evidence.

  147. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    2. June 2016 at 13:23

    OK, Freelander, what constitutes evidence for you?

  148. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    2. June 2016 at 13:58

    @Freelander,

    You ask for evidence of economic problems? How about quoting David Frum regarding immigration to Europe:

    “Immigrants from non-EU countries are twice as likely as natives to drop out of secondary school. Those of working age are twice as likely to be unemployed. Immigrants are also hugely overrepresented in the prisons of France, Britain, Belgium, and other European countries. Furthermore, a 2014 study in The Economic Journal found that each year between 1995 and 2011, immigrants from outside the European Economic Area were a net drag on the United Kingdom’s budget.

    The poorer the country from which migrants come, the higher the social cost of absorbing them. Consider the experience of Sweden, which on a per capita basis has one of Europe’s largest immigrant populations. More than 15 percent of Swedes are either foreign-born or were born in Sweden to two foreign-born parents. The country has extended a special welcome to refugees from some of the world’s most troubled places, including Somalia, Iraq, and Syria. But as Sweden’s intake from poor countries has grown, the economic performance of its immigrant population has lagged. The Economist reports that in 1991, the median income for non-European immigrant households was 21 percent below that of long-settled Swedish households. By 2013, the gap had widened to 36 percent.”

  149. Gravatar of Thiago Ribeiro Thiago Ribeiro
    2. June 2016 at 14:46

    “E Harding suggested negative judgements, stereotypes, and opinions of the black ethnic group. He is faulting them for deterioration of various US neighborhoods. I’m not saying he’s wrong, I’m saying he’s bigoted”– Massimo Heitor
    Sorry, but the word “bigotry” doesn’t mean what you think it means. You can’t have your own opinion, but you can’t have yor own English language.

  150. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    2. June 2016 at 18:13

    “Your example was flagrantly silly, but since you’re in tune with the moderator, you’re the one not called a moron.”

    I knew the Trump supporters have a innate propensity for absurd conspiracy theories-after all look at their candidate. He’s gets all his ‘facts’ from conspiracy theories out of the Enquirer and Alex Jones.

    This is the guy who Politifact shows to be saying something false 84% of the time and who is like the Grand Wizard of Birtherism.

    But I have to say that this is a real doozy. You think Scott Sumner called you a moron because I told him to?

  151. Gravatar of Gandydancer Gandydancer
    2. June 2016 at 19:50

    Scott Freelander: “… I haven’t seen one argument claiming immigration makes us worse off economically.”

    Who’s “us”? “The immigration surplus of $35 billion comes from reducing the wages of natives in competition with immigrants by an estimated $402 billion a year…” – George Borjas April 2013 (http://cis.org/immigration-and-the-american-worker-review-academic-literature )

  152. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    3. June 2016 at 02:55

    I knew the Trump supporters have a innate propensity

    You said libertarians were contradicting themselves if they made an issue of HRC’s use of a private server and now the issue is ‘Trump supporters’ and Alex Jones. Put the bong down and keep your argument straight.

  153. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    3. June 2016 at 03:03

    I’m reading your comments, but what you’re calling evidence is certainly nothing I’d call evidence.

    Freelander, anyone familiar with the social and political order in ‘diverse’ societies can figure out that ‘diversity’ is something you make adjustments for, not something you seek out. You want Belgium’s politics or Guyana’s, they’re all yours. The rest of us do not one these problems as a trade for unimportant short-term welfare benefits.

    (The elites in this country have been busy for fifty years building a hispanophone minority where there was none before and then telling local governments (via court decrees) that they’re obligated as peasants to bear the cost of that).

    Now, you can stick your fingers in your ears or, like Mike Sax, throw chaff in people’s faces, but the reality of diversity will still be staring everyone in the face when you’re done with your fun.

  154. Gravatar of Mike Sax Mike Sax
    3. June 2016 at 04:51

    “You said libertarians were contradicting themselves if they made an issue of HRC’s use of a private server and now the issue is ‘Trump supporters’ and Alex Jones. Put the bong down and keep your argument straight.”

    I’m not allowed to discuss more than one issue? As you didn’t respond to my point about libertarians I figured I’d move on to the fact that Trump supporters are wild eyed conspiracy buffs.

    There’s no logical reason why both these things can”t be true:

    1. The libertarians fulminating over Hillary’s private emails are hypocrites. You simply refused to respond to this point in any way

    2. Trump supporters are wild eyed conspiracy buffs

    I don’t have any bong. You’re mistaking me for a Bernie Sanders supporter

  155. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    3. June 2016 at 06:48

    I’m not allowed to discuss more than one issue?

    Mike Sax, you were responding to me, helpfully inserting a direct quotation from me before running on about Alex Jones. If you’d like to go off on odd tangents, do that. Don’t pretend you’re responding to me while doing it.

  156. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    3. June 2016 at 10:25

    “The real estate seminars strike me as a con that should have been beneath him”

    For me they seem par for the course for Trump.

    “O’Rourke professes to be worried that Trump will fire off nuclear warheads. At whom, he does not specify.”

    Who could possibly predict that with Trump? Maybe Scotland will ban him from their soil (and his golf course), and that will set him off.

    “Concern over Trump using nuclear weapons seem completely exaggerated. Trump does not want to destroy the world.”

    Besides, he doesn’t have to end up firing them himself: all he has to do is convince another nuclear state he’s unstable enough for them to make a first strike. Or perhaps we’ll just end up on the brink of nuclear annihilation but not actually go there… do we need that kind of worry, especially when it’ll likely be over nothing more than a narcissists’ ego?

    “Their upset is that Trump is obnoxious and offensive, which are superficial public demeanor traits.”

    If he demonstrated any respect or knowledge for how our public institutions (outside of suing people, which he’s quite familiar with) function, perhaps that would be excusable. But he doesn’t. Obnoxious and offensive and thin skinned and ego-maniacal, narcissistic and being a con man appear to be all there is to him. Maybe all he has are superficial and demeanor traits.

    Our culture has adopted this identity of permanent victimhood with whites and conservatives as the ultimate villains. I don’t expect Trump to work miracles or fix everything.

    ,

    “The left has proven quite successful at bullying and censoring any conflicting ideas.”

    I won’t defend the left there. However some on the left are fighting against that within their ranks. Excesses there are more and more identified as a problem with the “regressive left.” But now the right (in addition to it’s other problems) has started mimicking the left on this to some extent. There’s a cultural libertarian backlash to these tactics from either side, though I’ll grant you that on college campuses in particular, it’s more a leftist thing at this point.

    “At least Trump will appoint principled conservative supreme court justices”

    Trump has already backed away from his list (that Heritage helped him make) to some extent. If you think you can trust Trump there (who once identified his sister as a good candidate), then you’re falling for his con IMO. Here’s RedState on the issue:
    http://www.redstate.com/aglanon/2016/05/30/scotus-excuse-supporting-trump-weak-totally-irrelevant/

    “…push a principled conservative tax plan, and not do the crazy things that Hillary would do like push for aggressive military interventions, push ridiculous economic ideas like a $15 federal minimum wage, and more serious efforts to enact massive federal government expansion in health care and education.”

    I’ll grant you that HRC actually sounds more Hawkish than Trump, but with Trump who knows. All strategy seems to fly out the window with him once he feels his ego has bee bruised.

    Everything else is up in the air with him. He’s been on all sides of those issues in the past. You may say it’s not fair to examine where he was in 1990 or 2000 or 2005 or 2010, but he demonstrates changes his mind from tweet to tweet (recently) and appears either to not realize what he said, even just a short time ago, or to just lie about it completely without hesitation. For example he claimed the other day he never suggested Japan get nukes… when in fact he said exactly that just a short time before. Does he not realize that video exists?

    He’s made suggestions about defaulting on our debt. Then he claimed he didn’t. He’s suggested a wealth tax (not income, wealth), but now he says something else. He’s suggested what amounts to single payer, but now who knows what his policy is. To defend him on what he says is crazy. All you’re left with is how he makes you feel, which is what all this comes down to IMO.

    More from RedState:

    http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/06/03/gonzalo-curiel-tougher-mexican-border-crime-donald-trump-mile/

    http://www.redstate.com/absentee/2016/06/03/trump-flips-of-course-nevermind-i-totally-like-mexican-new-mexico-gov-martinez-and-whatever/

    They no longer feel a need over there to carry water for the GOP nominee this election so they go after HRC, Sanders, Johnson and Trump (especially Trump and HRC) and their respective supporters… and occasionally give them credit as well when they feel it’s deserved. It’s actually quite refreshing to read. They’ve written at least one (and usually two or more) articles directly disputing every single point you made in that paragraph. Perhaps when I have time I’ll dig a few more up for you… they say it so much better than I can.

    So whether Hilary is right or wrong on policy, she’s right or wrong within normal parameters and there’s no objective evidence to indicate these are not extreme times (except (mostly) within the fevered imaginations of White nationalists, White supremacists and conspiracy loons. I feel a lot more confident that the excesses and lunacy of the left can be mitigated and I see no reason to adopt the same victimization strategy on the right to counter it.

    Who is it that complains about “unfairness” this election cycle so much? Who’s playing the victim card? Trump and Sanders. There are several prominent voices on the right now recognizing that Trump is effectively a “social justice warrior” of the right.

  157. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    3. June 2016 at 10:30

    Harding, You said:

    “-Guess what? Which city in 1980 had the highest median income for full-time workers between the ages of 18 and 34?

    Flint, Michigan.

    Today most famous for the Flint water crisis and having the highest homicide rate of any city in the country.

    The second-highest city?

    Detroit. Today most famous for being the major city with the highest proportion of its residents Black and the highest homicide rate to boot.”

    It’s comical that you cite declining cities that have almost no immigrants, as an example of the harm done by immigrants. Not sure why you don’t see that.

    If you want to know why these cities declined, look no further than the influence of the UAW, which is not an immigrant organization. The auto industry stayed in the US, but moved to cheaper (nonunion) areas. Lots of blacks also moved to northern cities that are not basket cases, such as New York, DC and Chicago. As well as southern cities like Atlanta and Houston.

    Even I could probably find a few cities hurt by immigration, maybe in California’s Central Valley? You don’t seem to be able to find any :)

    Even if blacks were the problem you claimed, it has nothing to do with immigration. Most of our immigrants come from Asia and Latin America, and the small number from sub-saharan Africa tend to be pretty well educated (except a few refugees). The countries that have the biggest problem with immigration are those who combine a generous welfare state with low skilled immigrants. That really does create problems, as we see in the slums surrounding Paris.

    I’ve argued that the skill mix of our immigrants ought to roughly match the existing population–so that immigration functions roughly like a higher birth rate.

  158. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    3. June 2016 at 10:33

    ” to indicate these are not extreme times”

    should be

    ” to indicate these are extreme times”

  159. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    3. June 2016 at 10:37

    Scott, I have a comment in moderation: do me a favor and don’t let it out. Too many typos in it. Thanks.

  160. Gravatar of Tom Brown Tom Brown
    3. June 2016 at 10:45

    RedState on Megyn Kelly on Trump’s statement about the Judge from Indiana (this is pretty good):
    http://www.redstate.com/absentee/2016/06/03/boom-watch-megyn-kelly-destroys-trump-racist-smears-judge-trump-u.-case-video/

  161. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    3. June 2016 at 10:56

    “It’s comical that you cite declining cities that have almost no immigrants, as an example of the harm done by immigrants.”

    You made this point already. I already responded that you know he was citing this as an intra-US migration scenario that highlights ethnic conflict and problems. You just repeated your first point. Sure, sub-saharan ethnic migration to white Detroit was intra-US migration, but do you expect mass sub-saharan ethnic migration from Africa to have a wildly different outcome?

    And sure, the auto industry and the unions are a non-racial, non-migration set of issues, but other cities were able to develop new specialties and new industries. The giant employers of Austin, TX from twenty years ago have all massively downsized or vanished, yet Austin has developed new industries to replace them.

    BTW, there has been significant recent Arab immigration to the Detroit area. Some Christian Arabs who fled religious persecution in the Middle East. I read and would recommend Devil’s Night http://smile.amazon.com/dp/0804171408 about ethnic conflict and regional politics in Detroit.

  162. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    3. June 2016 at 12:38

    Sure, sub-saharan ethnic migration to white Detroit was intra-US migration, but do you expect mass sub-saharan ethnic migration from Africa to have a wildly different outcome?

    Again, you’re neglecting the real problem in Detroit, which was not the mass migration of blacks but the dysfunctional response to a substrate of social problems at a later date. The catastrophic decline in public order in Detroit was not coincident with the migration of blacks, but with Jerome Cavanaugh’s election to the Mayoralty. Now, the disposition manifest in the Cavanaugh and Coleman administrations in Detroit you do see at large in this country, which is why the decision-making class we have is absolutely the wrong one to handle any sort of social stress. Soi-disant libertarians like Alex Tabarrok are nearly as bad as creatures like Cavanaugh, because they hate cops.

  163. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    3. June 2016 at 12:42

    And sure, the auto industry and the unions are a non-racial, non-migration set of issues, but other cities were able to develop new specialties and new industries.

    Just to note, demographic implosion in Detroit has been confined to the core municipality. If you examine the population of all four counties which comprehend the dense metropolitan settlement, you’ll find the decline since 1980 has been 10%. Some of counties enveloping the suffering 3d tier cities (e.g. around Youngstown and Scranton / Wilkes-Barre) had larger declines still.

  164. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    3. June 2016 at 12:46

    Most of our immigrants come from Asia and Latin America,

    And a number of Latin American countries have terrible public order problems. The trouble you get with that is that these immigrants are recruited by elites to form a sandwich coalition against the non-exotic domestic working class. That’s what the Democratic Party is today. Well, an aspect of that deal is a refusal to impose standards on the minority population that the non-exotic working class might prefer, and that’s pretty much what happened in American core cities between 1960 and 1980.

  165. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    3. June 2016 at 13:18

    “Lots of blacks also moved to northern cities that are not basket cases, such as New York, DC and Chicago.”

    -New York and DC are gentrification hives. South Chicago is a basket case.

    “It’s comical that you cite declining cities that have almost no immigrants”

    -That’s because the U.S. don’t allow mass migration from the Congo. Black Americans from the South are our closest proxy for what this would look like.

    “The countries that have the biggest problem with immigration are those who combine a generous welfare state with low skilled immigrants. That really does create problems, as we see in the slums surrounding Paris.

    I’ve argued that the skill mix of our immigrants ought to roughly match the existing population–so that immigration functions roughly like a higher birth rate.”

    -I agree. I’ll look at the characteristics of cities with high actual immigrant populations. Also, See Art Deco’s comments.

    “Now, the disposition manifest in the Cavanaugh and Coleman administrations in Detroit you do see at large in this country, which is why the decision-making class we have is absolutely the wrong one to handle any sort of social stress. Soi-disant libertarians like Alex Tabarrok are nearly as bad as creatures like Cavanaugh, because they hate cops.”

    -You’re right, Art. It’s sad, but true. Most American intellectuals are wildly oblivious to how to deal with crime.

  166. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    3. June 2016 at 17:19

    -New York and DC are gentrification hives. South Chicago is a basket case.

    Again, the problem with your interpretation is that the decline in homicide was manifest throughout the metropolitan settlement in both loci. Neighborhoods gentrify. Whole settlements, if they’re of any dimension, will encompass every social stratum. Greater Washington sprawls over eight major jurisdiction. Declines in the homicide rate – ranging from 25% to more than 75% were registered in pretty much all of them. The same deal in New York. The five boroughs of the City of New York encompass 45% of the metropolitan settlement and 85% of those living in problem neighborhoods. You did not have a 75% drop in homicide rates in the Five Boroughs co-incident with a corresponding rise elsewhere. You had a 75% drop coincident with stasis or decline elsewhere. The only loci in greater New York which have sorely elevated homicide rates as that term would have been understood in 1980 would be Newark (NJ), Irvington (NJ), and the Bedford-Stuyvesant and Ocean Hill – Brownsville sections of Brooklyn. You have 18 million people in greater New York and perhaps 500,000 in these loci.

  167. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    3. June 2016 at 17:27

    Black Americans from the South are our closest proxy for what this would look like.

    No, black Americans are overwhelmingly West African in ancestry. The UNDOC data is likely pretty soft data. FWIW, west African homicide rates are elevated but in ranges an American would recognize. It’s really portions of Latin America and southern Africa which are off the charts.

  168. Gravatar of E. Harding E. Harding
    3. June 2016 at 19:03

    So, Art, would you care to tell me what our closest proxy for this would be?

    “You had a 75% drop coincident with stasis or decline elsewhere.”

    -Agree; I suspect this is due to a superior policing situation specific to NYC.

    Yes, Honduras’s homicide rate is off the charts. I doubt that’s innate, though.

  169. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    4. June 2016 at 05:36

    Closest analogue would be large scale migration from Brazil or the Caribbean. The crime situation is quite variable from these source loci, with homicide rates ranging from 2 per 100,000 to 40 per 100,000.

  170. Gravatar of ssumner ssumner
    4. June 2016 at 09:48

    Massimo, Arabs have been living in the Detroit area for a long time, and they are doing fine. It’s the non-immigrants who are not doing fine.

    Harding, It’s amusing that you cite non-immigrants as an example of why immigrants would be bad for the US. Hello, we have tens of millions of immigrants. Why don’t you talk about the American cities that have been wrecked by immigration?

    As far as blacks, many US slaves originally came from West Africa. You simply assert that modern immigrants from that region would do poorly, even though data suggests that Americans who migrated from Nigeria and Ghana are doing pretty well, earning above the national average

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    You really ought to be talking about situations like the Arab neighborhoods surrounding Paris, not the USA. All you’ve done is to show how pathetically weak the anti-immigrant argument in America really is. No one would claim there are no problems, any movement of 10s of millions of people will create some problems, not all immigrant groups are doing well. But I would have expected something much more dramatic.

  171. Gravatar of Massimo Heitor Massimo Heitor
    4. June 2016 at 12:46

    @ssumner,

    “Massimo, Arabs have been living in the Detroit area for a long time, and they are doing fine. It’s the non-immigrants who are not doing fine.”

    I wasn’t at all criticizing the Arab immigration to Michigan. I’ve lived and worked in Michigan for a while, and I had a positive impression of the Arabs in Michigan. In the book I recommended, Devil’s Night, they talk mostly positively about people of Arab descent in Michigan. Many, but not all, were Christian Arabs who fled religious persecution in the middle east. AFAIK, most of the Michigan Coney Island restaurants are run by middle easterners. That is clearly very physically demanding work and I would never speak badly about that.

    Some groups of non-immigrants are doing well in Michigan. Obviously, many cities near Detroit like Bloomfield Hills and Birmingham and a little farther out like Novi and Northville are mostly thriving, wealthy, productive, non-immigrant cities.

    “You really ought to be talking about situations like the Arab neighborhoods surrounding Paris, not the USA.”

    When I wrote “there are unhappy immigration scenarios. You know what they are, and pointing them out is somewhat tasteless and mean”, the French banlieues were first on my mind. Similarly, I have relatives in Italy who have unhappy stories about Arab immigrants, although these are admittedly one off anecdotal stories, and there is always a one off story to support every position.

    @Art Deco,

    “Just to note, demographic implosion in Detroit has been confined to the core municipality.”

    Of course. As I mentioned earlier in this post, there are many very wealthy, nice, happy cities, just outside of Detroit that aren’t experiencing population loss or major social dysfunction.

    “The catastrophic decline in public order in Detroit was not coincident with the migration of blacks, but with Jerome Cavanaugh’s election to the Mayoralty. Now, the disposition manifest in the Cavanaugh and Coleman administrations in Detroit you do see at large in this country,”

    Cavanagh was out of office well before I was born and I’ve not heard of him. Coleman Young, was talked about a lot in the book I mentioned “Devil’s Night”. Black residents I know refer to him as the original “Gangsta Mayor”. Young ran on a blatantly black nationalist racist platform. Clearly, without the intense racial strife there would have been no Coleman Young.

  172. Gravatar of Art Deco Art Deco
    4. June 2016 at 14:01

    Clearly, without the intense racial strife there would have been no Coleman Young.

    Actually, quality of life for blacks in Detroit ca. 1960 was as good as it got in this country at that time. Racial resentments are a given, though they differ in intensity and texture between north and South. You had only a few mayors anywhere near as ghastly as Young, and none so destructive.

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